Walking wallet/ATM

Anyone experienced this?? I don't mean people scamming you in touristy places or little kids coming up to you saying "give me money" , I'm talking about nice people you've met, people you've made friends with who are not there to scam you but suddenly experience some financial hurdle and ask you as a rich foreigner for help. It's happened to me before but never a very large amount of money. A couple in Flores, wife local, husband Taiwanese are experiencing financial difficulties, the wife is applying for a spouses visa, the husband had to urgently go home, and they don't have enough money and have asked me for AU$2000, which is about 3 weeks salary for me and I currently don't have a lot more in my bank account. I should have said that I didn’t have enough money in the first place but I stupidly didn't, I told them that my bank didn't recognize the branch so I couldn’t transfer the money but the couple are still persisting. Has this happened to anyone and how did you deal with it? Should I just ignore them? They say they would pay me back, and I'm sure that he would have a decent enough salary in Taiwan to be able to do that but I can't be too sure and my worry is that if others will find out, they will ask me in the future. I met this couple in the place I was staying in Maumere, they were related to a priest who lives there who had studied in Australia so I’m worried that others in Maumere and their family in Bajawa will catch on and request alarge sum of money from me? ANyone got any advice?

That is scary.

You better do a runner if you can still escape their clutches.

You will NEVER SEE YOUR MONEY AGAIN>its gone once you pass it to them.

Don't give the money under any circumstances!!! As you say yourself he probably has a good job in Taiwan. I feel you are being scammed. Pamela.

never never give in to the scammers...

Being asked for money by Indonesian friends is nothing unusual, nor is it as wrong as Westerners might think.

However your story has two unusual aspects.

1: The husband being Taiwanese. He should know that's not how things work.

2: The amonut - HUGE!

You really started this the wrong way by not claiming you could not help straight away, so unless they are REALLY good friends of yours, I'd suggest simply ignoring further, persistant claims.
Surely the Taiwanese guy should have closer friends/relatives back in wealthy Taiwan to count on!

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<hr>I'm talking about nice people you've met, people you've made friends with who are not there to scam you but suddenly experience some financial hurdle and ask you as a rich foreigner for help<hr></blockquote>

You don't think so, but YES what they're doing IS a SCAM job.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>A couple in Flores, wife local, husband Taiwanese are experiencing financial difficulties, the wife is applying for a spouses visa, the husband had to urgently go home, and they don't have enough money<hr></blockquote>
So? There are variations of this story going on throughout the world for the purpose of scamming good hearted and naive people.

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<hr>Should I just ignore them? <hr></blockquote>
Yes. See the advice on the second sentence on post #1.

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<hr>They say they would pay me back<hr></blockquote>

So? How do you know they WILL follow through? A$2000 is a lot to ri$k on some stranger's word without know if it's true or not, right?

As Laszlo says, the concept of asking for money is not as "wrong" as we might feel. It's a very key thing in Indonesian culture to spread money around among family and friends: a wealthy uncle will often buy cars, houses, fund expensive foreign educations etc for fairly distant family memebers, and particularly wealthy individuals sometimes do the same thing for close friends. As a traveler from the "West" you are always percieved as outrageously wealthy (which can be a little trying when your a shoestring backpacker - or worse still an English teacher on an Indonesian salary). Equally, your transient nature, and the brief nature of your visit will mean that such subjects may be raised rather more quickly than decorum would require. However, that does not mean that the family with whom you've been hanging out for a couple of hours who raise the subject of financial help with some medical or educational costs or whatever had nothing but that venal consideration in mind the moment they invited you into their home for coffee and chat. It's taken me a long time to come to that conclusion, and I find that I am now free of that deeply hurt sensation of betrayal when i walk away from such an encounter. That said, I never do hand over the money, principally because I simply don't have anything approaching the wealth they percieve me to have, and because as a culturally bound westerner I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea (i would also almost certainly not pay for my secon cousins to study abroad in the unlikely scenario of my becoming enormously wealthy). A genuinely wealthy Indonesian put in the same situation might react differently.

BUT: The story above sounds utterly outrageous for the reasons metioned above, not least the huge sum, and the fact that the man is Taiwanese... It sounds like one of the very few scenarios in Indonesia to which I might react with a firm "@#$% off!"

The jury's not out on your specific case. The votes are in and they are unanimous. Apparently you had a pang of conscience and sought some counsel. That says some good things about you as you have both a head and a heart. Hopefully you have not forked over any money during the interim.

As a related issue, I'd amplify on one point previously mentioned. One of Laszlo's statements was more general in nature, and deserves some attention. In fact, it is of great cross-cultural interest in my way of thinking.

Though scammers and grifters and con men and touts run aplenty in this struggling nation of 245,000,000 people, legitimate requests for financial help from good people in need is not uncommon.

In the west, we are often leery to mix friendship and business, or become involved with borrowing or loaning money amongst friends. The fear of losing a friend over some cash is really not worth it for many. This may not be a general rule, but a significant percentage bear such trepidations.

In Indonesia, not surprisingly, the culture is different. Friendship and money- or love and money for that matter; these are not easily separated from each other. In fact, they are often indivisible. It is part of the culture; its modus operandi; and also a commentary on how the effects of living on very little shapes the qualities defining human relationships. Friendship is in part measured by its capacity to help one survive. Marriage definitely falls in that category. That is one good reason why the scammers here are so brazen. Monetary requests are nothing unusual.

For the outsider and the uninitiated, it's all a little confusing.

It you are in Indonesia long enough to make what you can trust to be real friends, chances are one of them will ask you for money. The fact you are a foreigner and assumed to be rich (which in all fair comparative measure you are) should not automatically assumed to be their sole reasoning for asking. Friends in Indonesia ask friends for money. It could be that they are paying you a complement after a fashion.

I have made a rule of only giving money to those Indonesian friends who had been open-hearted and in due course asked for little in return. This can only be proved over time, obviously. If they ran into trouble, I would offer it gladly. If this had to do with paying a hospital bill past due, I was especially forth coming.

This is not to say I recommend following suit. It is simply personal and anecdotal. Also, I live in Indonesia, so the context may not apply. If you are just traveling through, the ground rules will somewhat different.

For the foreigner just in off the boat, Indonesians looking for quick cash know a prospect when they see one. They'll pursue that individual with aggressiveness. If you brush them off initially, they usually bug off. Body language goes a long way. Showing absolutely zero interest and walking away from them in mid-sentence is also effective. It's not a pleasant behavior to affect, but sometimes it's necessary.

But yours is an opportunity to learn something about how Indonesians regard money vis-a-vis both love and friendship. Though your particular instance is egregious and seems open and shut, related episodes in the future may be of a more subtle nature. There's often more involved than meets the eye.

I can say one thing about lending money- don't expect it to ever be payed back. But don't doubt the borrower's intention to do so is actually sincere- even if they know they will never be able to! If you are going to hand it over- have it be a gift.

One last thing. It is interesting to note the Bahasa word pinjam is defined as both to borrow and to lend. There is no separate word set aside for each.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr> have made a rule of only giving money to those Indonesian friends who had been open-hearted and in due course asked for little in return. This can only be proved over time, obviously. If they ran into trouble, I would offer it gladly.<hr></blockquote>Same here.
But I always limit the amount or readiness to give, otherwise they'd certainly end up asking more often.
And of course even if they ask to "borrow" that money, I never, for a moment, expect it to be repaid either!<blockquote>Quote
<hr>the Bahasa word pinjam is defined as both to borrow and to lend. There is no separate word set aside for each. <hr></blockquote>Not quite so. For all I know, "pinjam" means to "borrow", while "lend" is "pinjamkam", eg. to "make sg. borrowed"

Hmm, come to think of it, I once (only!) lent money, quite a lot of it, to an Indonesian I had only known for a few days.
And got it back promptly a few days later! :-)
But this was a carefully considered special case.

Would you give so much money to people back home that you barely know?

I wonder if this is a troll op.

Hmmmm, but the op has been around since 2002, so most likely not.

Sorry to doubt you, op, ... but its a hard thing.

Pity you had to face this sort of thing like this, I have a loan outstanding, my own fault, went into credit card red line, a long time ago, got a loan of AUD$8000, now paying it back.

Slowly paying it back.

This person I know quite well. The person who loaned me the dosh.

I can't do a runner, the debt is nearly all paid back, but I can tell you, paying money back is the hard part.

Sad case this one.

Thanks for your advice everyone, #11, no I definitely wouldn't. #1 I'm in Australia, they are in Flores, no need to do a runner. #2, #3, #5, I wouldn’t consider it a scam as such; I'd hate to think of it that way. I think they are just seeing me as the rich foreign friend who could bail them out of trouble; I don't believe their intention was to scam me as soon as they met me. Though I do agree that the husband could ask his own family in Taiwan and not me. I met them in January, the husband has been in Indo since October, he's still there, and had to pay for his wife's Taiwanese visa, there is the slight possibility that he’s lowon funds, but one must not be too sure, I’ll just ignore their pleas.

I too have confronted this dilema in Indonesia and in Mexico as well as Nicaragua. I am sure that most of the time it was the old 5 dollar ( or even $50 "tire change")panhandle that I sometimes experience here at home. I think the cultural issues mentioned are quite valid and interesting but it is certainly a challenge to figure where we fit in to that scheme of things.I always cherish getting close( or at least seemiing to do so ) to people in my travels but have noticed this paranoia of gaining dependents having a chilling effect on these relationships. The dilema for me comes when you really know or strongly suspect that a generous but relatively small ( say 50 , 100 or even a thousand dollars) contribution directly to an individual or family could really help and even in some case change the course of their lives. Once as a dirty backpacker in Indonesia I befriended a poor student with no family business or "feudal" connections who had been attending a technical training program that would give him a real chance to get a lower level professional job. With this job he probably would have helped his younger brothers and sisters get through high school ( they pay for that in most developing countries). His studies were put on hold indefinately due to some other family priority. His entire program was less than $2,000. At that time a tourists video camera cost that much or more. I myself had an $8,000 budget for a 12 months to indefinate time backpacker trip. To this day I wonder if several months of my trip would have been worth boosting this familys chances.

At this very moment Im struggling with what t o do about my recent week long encounter with a very kind, innocent and guenuine tuk tuk driver in Cambodia. I would appriciate any feedback here from the forum. He was sweet and generous the whole week that he was my driver, not pulling any of the usual manipulative shopping scams. In the middle of the week he showed up on time and exhausted because he had been up all night while his wife was delivering their first child. I gave him a paid day and a half off and extended my stay to finish my tour.He was such a proud father that I was quite touched. I got the daily baby report and finally an invitation to meet the family on my way to the airport. I feel the invitation was made out of pride and not for the sake of pity( although I feel i have in the past experienced that type of invitation as well). Needless to say the experience was a real eye opener.In particular one neice was very attached to my driver friend/employee in a very touching way. The driver himself had wished for a daughter but had become the proud father of a son ( I dont believe this to be typical).I surprised him with a discrete $100 tip in an envelope at the airport.---Now the dilema---Its the low point of the low season and he sometimes dosnt have even one customer. He has told me he is $50 a month short on milk money and baby supplies.--Could I , Should I give it to him? Whatever happened to breast feeding? ...Could it be a hustle???? I do make more money than I spend but Im not even doing what I should to invest in my own career and prepare for my own retirement ( Im 42) and I have a sister with an unemployed husband, 3 kids and even a poor old mother that could use 50$ more help than I give them already. What to do? Ive given him photos of the family and tips on dealingwith tourists as well as deserved recomendations to otheres on TTers as a driver. Illl eave this post here innhope of some advice and maybe make it its own posting to see waht I get. Thanks for reading and good luck OP and responders!!---adran

$100 for a tip???
That's more than what most Cambodians earn in a month!
Per capita GDP (2005): $448!
Not surprising you get a request for more money, and if you give, you can be sure more will follow.

AU$2000 is really a big sum of money to lend, it's quite 1700USD!!! I never experienced such a big demand but all my Flores friends try to borrow some money. They invent plenty of reasons to move me to pity. I think it will be helpful for tourists to Flores to know some common fairytales. 1) The landsliding near Ruteng took lifes of half of my family and I have to send all my money to funerals (as discovered later the landsliding took lifes of a few villagers from distant village and all relatives are alive); 2) My cousin suddenly dead in front of me under truck's wheels and I have to spend all family money for his funerals but as a result I cannot pay 200$ credit for a motorbike and a bank will seize my bike. (the usual credit payment for a bike only 500000 rp per month). 3) My family died during tsunami in Maumere in 90s and only me and my little sister survived, now she's suffering from some awful decease and I cannot help her because the special medical treatment is not available in Flores and we must go to Bali. (IMHO the medicine in Bali is also awful and horryfying expensive)
And so on. Every time I hear about somebody's else funerals I'm pretty sure that this have nothing common with me, with my money and with common sense.
Sometimes I can help local people in need but I consider the sum 250000 rp is more then enough - it's the half of the salary of a local professional.

Never borrow money from friends if you want to stay friends. So don't let them borrow money from you. No! No! No! I'm sure they'll understand your position if they are truly friends. Would you do it (borrow that much)? It's quite a big sum.

Thanks again for your advice, my excuse of my bank not recognising heirs might work A few months ago I tried transferring money to Flores, for purely ban fide charitable purposes, i.e., building a kindergarten for kids in a kampung in Maumere, the person provided letters for support, showed me the site where he was building the kindergarten and new some Indon friends I have in Melbourne, I tried transferring $80 but there was some hitch with the bank here and the money didn't go through. One of my friends here was also transferring money to him at the same time, she had done that several times and never had a problem, I gave her money and she did the transfer for me and showed me recepits. I haven't even bothered trying with this couple but even if i did, I could face te ame problem with my bank.

Sorry, that should be bone fide not ban fide, knew not new and theirs, not heirs. I was planning to go to FLores and visit some of these people at the end of the year, now I'm not so sure.

Does anyone remember that sometime back there was a post asking what things you regretted doing or not doing on you overseas trips.
This got quite a lot of responses. One I have remembered was a reply saying that they had always regretted not giving the becak driver who had driven them around for some time $200 to buy his own and be able to run his own business.
He/she didn't say they were asked for it but must have enquired as to the cost. (I think it was a becak from memory, as a bemo would have been far more than that) That said $200 is a lot different to $2000!

Don't bother with excuses Luke.
They will surely find a "solution" to the banking problem, extending the awkward correspodence.
Simply ignoring them will work best.
Come on, you surely shouldn't feel sorry for "offending" or losing such "friends", of all???

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>In Indonesia, not surprisingly, the culture is different. Friendship and money- or love and money for that matter; these are not easily separated from each other. In fact, they are often indivisible. It is part of the culture; its modus operandi; and also a commentary on how the effects of living on very little shapes the qualities defining human relationships. Friendship is in part measured by its capacity to help one survive. Marriage definitely falls in that category. That is one good reason why the scammers here are so brazen. Monetary requests are nothing unusual.<hr></blockquote>

OK but the OP's "friends" are a Taiwanese and a "westerner" not local Indonesians. Furthermore, judging from what the OP wrote she barely knew them and the amount of money requested is A$2000 or US$1658 or EUR1229. Either way you look at it, it's an awful lot of money to ask of/pass out to people you barely know. In the case of the Indonesians wouldn't that be of close friends and family then of "casual aquantances"? So it seemed like this arguement is irrelevant to the OP's case is it not?

#24 I'm a male.

When i'm in a situation like this, I explain how i am slowly paying off a big debt. (It's not really a lie to be perfectly honest). I'll exagerate and say it's US$5000. If they're real friends, then they would be sympathetic to your needs right?

Even if the people are being truthfull and honest, giving them money will just encourage them to keep asking other foreigners.

other possible scenarios:
you recently became unemployed, you're saving up for your wedding, you're using your life savings to pay for your trip, you just bought a car back in your home country, etc....

any other ideas?

Hi,

Re #26, I think that finding excuses isn't necessary or useful because it might raise hopes that LATER you will have the money or that perhaps the next person will say yes (see what happened to the OP when he gave his excuse!). I prefer to just politely explain that I don't have money on hand to lend out - simple as that. I may even explain also if it's someone I don't know very well that it really isn't that usual or even polite in my country to ask to borrow money from someone you don't know really know. IF it's someone that I do know quite well, then I MAY well consider it, but it would need to be exceptional circumstances and like Laszlo, I would always be working on the notion that I will probably never see that money again. Like others, I learnt this the hard way. Even in the West it can be pretty tough going to ask someone to give you back money they have lent. And even more so in super polite Indonesia - there's a good chance the person who borrowed the money will feel as though they are losing face if the money is requested and they don't have it (or didn't really think they would have to pay it back...) and they will just start to steer clear of you. So you may even LOSE a friend over it. I never mix friendship and money!

I think that the OP knows that the big mistake he made was giving the couple HOPE that he WOULD lend the money if he could get it from the bank. It's best to just politely say no in the first place.

I certainly wouldn't be as ready to label this a scam, although it could be. If I were you OP, I would just tell them, look I thought maybe I could lend you the money, but I can't - apologise profusely and then just don't engage in any further discussion with them about it - just lots of polite smiles. If it is authentic, they will find a solution, I am sure.

Just got an sms from them this morning, I ignored it but that's difficult, if they 'call' me then I'll have to try to think of an excuse, but won't worry about that now. When they called me previously their number showed up as “private number", which is difficult to ignore. #26, I thought of that too then I thought that they might think "if this guy can afford to pay for a wedding or car, he surely has the money to help us".

I think #27 has really hit the nail on the head, OP, and highlighted your original mistake - making further excuses will only let the whole sorry situation drag on and on. Uncomfortable as it might be it's probably time for a hard, definite "NO!" If not, this will go on forever...

I recently returned to Australia after a six-year stint in Java. I also thought I had made friends with folk, and then they'd tell me about their sick mother or failing business or the LPG running out, and often I would "lend" them money. I must have been a sucker, as I even loaned AU$1000.00 to my neighbour who needed to get her homecrafts business going.

In ALL cases, these 'friends' stopped contacting me, and I never, ever got one cent back. My monthly salary at the time was Rp3juta (AU$400.00)

After the earthquake in Yogyakarta, I tried to contact my homecrafts friend so that some of this money could be used amongst my neighbours to repair their houses, but the silence has been complete.

Now, if anyone is interested, I have this amazing offer going in Nigeria.... :-)

All I can say is that after reading several posts on this thread, I am absolutely amazed by how naive (and generous!) well-meaning Bule can be.

Well Op since you answered my post I guess Ill put my to cents in on your situatuion as well. First off Im gonna give my guy a miss on any further money- well unless I was somehow convinced there was an emergency I suppose - but hard to imagine convincing me from a distance. I still think he was a sweet and far above average driver so I want him to get some biz but the 50 a month thing does just sound too steep to be for real - Sorry if I ruined him by being too nice.
I think your people sound just a bit too dodgy, Im sorry to say. I think you should cut them off firmly by saying that you really dont think your the right person for them to be asking money of and thats that. Blame your friends blame us but make it clear youve decided not to do it. Im gonna tell my guy I was just trying to help in the moment but my priorities for sending money lay with my own poor family but I wish him luck and lots of business.He hasnt asked since so I think he knows the answer but it was my mistake to explain myself at teh outset so I will now. Godd LUck and dont you dare give away that much money to strangers!

#32 I think thats exactly right......your own family, look after them. You did enough for him when you were there, you were generous towards him.

OP..... People are just so opportunistic sometimes, its disappointing when its money that they want. But I think other posts are right, friendship and then money often go hand in hand in Indonesia, its normal. Definitely don't give it to them, you will regret it for a long time if you do.

I have had so many requests also, I usually have to say very sorry, not at the moment. ie buy my motorbike so I can send my child to school, land offers, various requests for sponsorship to Australia to study or work, (often they want to work illegally) along with free board, businesses for sale offers. If I had agreed to all of these I would probably be broke!

You have to do what is appropriate to your own situation. They probably think you are very wealthy, let them know its not possiible. I help people when I feel I am in a position to do so and when they assist me in some way, its give and take, thats fair.

Eek!! Got a call from the couple, I came clean saying that's too much, I can't afford to do that. They aswered back by sayign "give what you can". I then asked, "doesn't Yosep (her husband's Indonesian name) have family who could help", his wife answered by saying "he has only an elderly mother", soon after the line got cut off. Til now I was ignoring their Sms, but I couldn't avoid this one. As I said in the OP, they wife is related to a priest I met who studied in AUstralia, I'll see if he can do something.

Once more, I can only suggest you to stop getting involved (like seeing if the wife's relative can do something).
ANY further involvment on your part will only extend this nuisance.

Why do you think they need you, rather than those relatives for help? ;-)

I'd just cut of the call next time(s) they call.
That should get the message through.
Don't be so shy!

Up to you, but I think you are on the brink of loosing the sympathy of all here... this is their problem not yours; time to cut all contact and answer no more calls I'd say. I don't think you should be getting anymore involved ("seeing if the priest can do something etc."). A firm no at the very beginning might have been hard for you to do, but they would then not have kept bothering you, and your friendship with them would probably have had more chance of surviving as an uncompromised relationship. When you think about it - though they should never have made such an outrageous request - you have to some extent been stringing them along by prevaracating and making excuses, allowng the idea that you might give the money to remain, and the longer you maintain contact and involvement, the longer that will go on. Really it's not fair to them or you. JUST STOP IT NOW!!!

I completely agree with you gouys, unfortunately the call got cut off as soon as they said send us what you can, so I couldn't say a final "no", but it's not wort taking it any further. Another thing is that when they call my mobile their number doesn't come up on screen, instead I get 'private number'. That's a difficult one to ignore, because when friends or colleagues ring me from their work phone or when there is an important business call coming through the same 'private number' message shows up on screen. However if I get a call with that message outside work hours, I won't answer as it would probably be this couple. Thanks guys.