Question about Aussies and Kiwis

i work at a company in tokyo with a lot of people from different countries. ive been to australia and new zealand and absolutely loved travelling through those respective countries and found the people extremely friendly and helpful. however, from working with aussies and kiwis in tokyo, i am finding that they are very reluctant to "work". i realize that his sounds bad and is not a reflection of all people from those countries but i guess i am running out of ideas of how to effectively deal with these types of situations. ive noticed that they are very reluctant to actually take the work on themselves and almost dictate what they want done. they come across as demanding, lazy, arrogant and self righteous while leaving as soon as the bell sounds. the "do as i say, not as i do" mantra seems to come to mind. ive found a majority do not speak japanese, make no effort to speak it. when you take the initiative and do as they ask, then it is completely wrong as it was not done in the "aussie or kiwi way(whatever that is)" and you are starting from scratch again. if i ask as to how they would like it done before i start, the comment which is most common is "give it some thought and push it through". i wish my fellow collegues would take into account that they are working in japan and realize that they are the ones that need to fit in with the local culture/customs as opposed to the locals trying to make all the accomodations to them.

ive asked my fellow japanese collegues on their thoughts on this issue and their impressions are the same as mine.

i realize that we all come from various different backgrounds/cultures, etc but has anyone else encountered this situation in japan. any suggestions on how to deal with this? thanks.

Well, they do come from a land down under where women glow and men chunder. No, seriously, just as the Yanks are heirs to a glorious history of perfection that necessitates their constant self-righteous lecturing everyone else in a very loud voice, the Aussies are a product of what was originally a penile colony. This requires them to neglect honest Protestant work in favour of daydreaming about how to introduce Mr.Johnson to Sheila. Kiwi work pretty much consists of a bunch of guys sitting around pounding down vitamin B's while discussing why the new Haka isn't as scary as 15 average flirting Scottish women.

If you don't like working for jerks, move. Many people have reported what you have, and although there are probably lots of hard-working Aussies and Kiwis out there, you have obviously run into a bad lot. If you can't adapt or get someone to change the situation, move. It is not your responsibility to point out that fellow foreigners live and work in Japan, nor that they MUST fit in with the local customs.

OP, here's my take on your situation. I'm a Kiwi, and I don't think that we are pathologically lazy as a nation. We are not a nation of people who want to work themselves into an early grave, but the idea of fairness and "pulling your weight" is important enough that most people will put in a good day's work.

As an extremely egalitarian society we don't like to be talked down to- someone from a more authoritarian society will probably have to find a different way to dispense orders. A typical way to ask someone to do something in NZ/ Australia is "What I'd like you to do, is I'd like you to .... Okay?" When I was helping to train new eikaiwa teachers from NZ/ Australia we had a really hard time getting them to simply say "Please open the book" as it's ingrained into us to ask things in a more roundabout way rather than give blunt commands.

It sounds like you have a group where a working culture has developed among those particular people into the situation you now describe- it doesn't mean that is typical of all Kiwis and Aussies anywhere, any more than all Americans are loud-mouthed arrogant a**holes, although I have met a few of those.

I'm surprised you say that a majority of Aussies and Kiwis you have met don't speak Japanese as they are probably the only countries where it is taught at high school, and that is not my experience at all. I speak pretty reasonable Japanese myself, or so I like to think...

LOL Pudman, I read your post without seeing who the author was, and when I saw "penile colony" I thought "what the ...? Is that a typo?" It was all made clear to me when I saw who the author was...

OP, are most of them on working holiday visas?

I apologize for my flippancy Kara. In all sincerity there are and have been some very notable. pleasant and hard working Australians such as Niki Lauda, Franz Klammer, Mozart, Adolph Hitler and of course the Governator hisself, Arnold Schwarzenburger. That Colonel Klink accent drives me crazy. And although I've never worked with Kiwis, I have had conjugal relations with several and can vouch that - boomboomwise - they are as hardworking as James Brown was....although I must admit that the long pecker and plump, round, agitated body gave me quite a bit of trouble. Thank God they're flightless and can't get away from ol' Puddy!

OK, Adolph wasn't very pleasant. But he certainly worked very, very, hard at being extremely UNPLEASANT.

Interesting.<BR><BR>I wonder if having a better cross section of nationalities would <BR>stop cliquey us and them thinking.<BR><BR>I don't think it's anything about Australians and Kiwi's perse<BR>(declaring my bias I'm from Aus.)<BR><BR>I think Karan's point about people getting very pricklish about <BR>being 'ordered' is very fair. Have you tried asking one of the <BR>more reasonable ones by themselves if there is a problem? <BR><BR>It sounds more like your work environment that's the problem.<BR>

Lookey here, I am an American by birth and Southern by the grace of God and I spent a bit of time in New Zealand. 7 months actually and while working the Apple orchard circuit I found that my Kiwi-counterparts were always telling me to slow down. Of course I'm a farm boy and grew up working construction for my slave-driving father. I have one speed. I thought it was just my own misguided (over-guided) work ethic until I went to Korea where I worked with several other Aussies and Kiwi's. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to call a few of them my friends but I'll be damned if it wasn't like passing an Immigration bill through congress to get them to give a little more than the bare minimum of what is required of them. Keep in mind that statistically, Americans put in like the 3rd most working hours, beaten only by Chinese and the Japanese. I don't think I'm making a broad generalization here but hey, that's just the way it is.

Is there anything more annoying than the "if you don't like it, move" argument? Don't like something? Pack up and leave or keep your mouth shut! Come now Glenski, you know things are not so simple. My hatred for campaign trucks is surpassed only by my dislike of smoky restaurants. Does that mean I should leave Japan? Or, should I voice my displeasure and try to make positive changes in my community?

So while I support OP's right to complain and sigh exasperatedly at the infantility of Glenski's 'shut up or quit' mentality, I must say, there's nothing wrong with not working too hard ;-) All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Perhaps the world would be a better place if everyone worked 40 hour weeks, left as soon as the bell sounded and spent more time with their wives and kids.

Are they early 20-somethings here on a Working Holiday Visa? Is there a lot of personality clashes in the office? How long have they been in Japan? Adjusting to a new life in foreign country is tough. How do you know it is nationality and not circumstance that causes their behaviour?

It is a cop-out to immediately blame nationality (race/sex/etc) as the cause of a problem.

Speaking aside from this case, I see nothing wrong with leaving work right on time. And I strongly dislike this peer group pressure attitude that you must stay at the office long hours to prove you are a good worker.

Has this been posted in the Australian forum?

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>there are and have been some very notable. pleasant and hard working Australians such as Niki Lauda, Franz Klammer, Mozart, Adolph Hitler and of course the Governator hisself, Arnold Schwarzenburger.<hr></blockquote>pudman, do you even realize that you are confusing Austrian with Australian? Or at least, that is my take on your silliness.

Sinner,
Who is being "infantile" here?

I did not say shut up or get out. I suggested that if adaptation was not possible, then one should consider leaving -- leaving the job, not the nation. "Adaptation" itself means finding ways to remedy the situation, but it also implies compromise. When dealing with personalities, it is often a gray area, which means both parties have to give something.

Don't like election trucks? (I certainly don't.) I'm not telling you to leave Japan. The OP is talking about a work situation, not an incident in your neighborhood. I wouldn't think of telling you to leave your neighborhood or Japan in that case, either. In fact, I hate the election trucks, but there is really little that anyone can do about them, so it is merely a matter of sucking it up for the short time they are around (again, this is adaptation but to an extreme level, because I, too, don't want to shut up over this topic).

Smoky restaurants? Same thing. Except here, you can do your best to explain that you want to be seated as far as possible from smokers, not be asked to leave the country.

Want another stab at this? Ok, if the OP is a manager of these people (Aussie, Kiwi, or anything else), then it is up to the manager to get things done. Do what it takes to negotiate, explain, force, give bad performance reviews,etc. and in the end, if the people don't work, you just don't renew their contracts. I agree with your last 2 lines, Sinner, wholeheartedly. However, it seems that the OP is not finding this an issue. To expect people to do a fair day's work is not unreasonable. However, from rereading the OP, I think the Aussies and Kiwis are over the OP, not under him/her. Not easy to tell, but this is my impression. For that, I say, if you can't adapt, then either suck it up or leave. There is really no other choice unless you can find someone higher than them to complain to.

If the Aussies and Kiwis are the OP's coworkers, then don't worry about them unless you have to rely upon them for shared work. In which case, if they aren't putting out, talk to the boss. That's the boss' job to keep people in line. In the end, if you can't get satisfaction from that, then maybe it is time to consider leaving -- the company, not the country.

Glenski, <blockquote>Quote
<hr>If you don't like working for jerks, move.<hr></blockquote><blockquote>Quote
<hr>If you can't adapt or get someone to change the situation, move<hr></blockquote> Call me crazy, but that sounds a lot like the "if you don't like it, move" argument. You even used "don't like" once and "move" twice. Whether you're telling (or if you prefer "suggesting") someone to leave his job or leave the country, either way the 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude is infantile.

thanks for all the replies. actually, i like my job and the people that i work with so im not really interested in moving over a few bad apples (workwise, not as people though) that's why i am asking for advice as to handle these types of differences. i guess the work effort or the concept of work differs from country to country and from culture to culture so im really interested in finding out a common area and work it from there.

I think most of us quickly got the fact that pudman knew what he was doing when he "confused" Austrian and Australian.

#9's question echoes my own: Are these Austrozealanders on working-holiday visas?

If so, chances are they see themselves as short-termers, and thus have the typical short-termer's work ethic. That's a factor worth considering if you're looking to uncover commonalities and "work it from there".

what a nice advise, MOVE ?? QUIT?? come on, as OP elaborates that he need opinion how to handle such situations.Eventually, there should be some way. As I feel ur under the wings of these brats,why dont you talk to your HR people, Im sure youc an relate more since your both local, and the HR in the end will find way how to adjust the working relationship that you have. AND OP, its also your chance to adapt new people, new style.

I think the OP is being a bit unfair, and is probably an Eikaiwa teacher who has got a bit big for their boots.

I'm an NZer, speak Japanese fluently, and work hard, not teaching English either

. Am I an exception to the rule? Probably. Face it the crap wages on offer in the OP's industry, and low unemployment rates down under fairly much mean that the quality of Antipodeans who come to work in Eikaiwa is low.

PS Glenski is known on most Japan related forums as Glumski. No prizes for guessing why!

I'm a big fan of leaving the office as soon as the whistle blows, if not sooner. 10 years in Japan and I don't think I've ever worked a 40-hour week. Right now, on my busy weeks I'm doing 25 hours. Not working rules!

A point to note to is the 'following Japanese customs thing'. Don't be overly keen to do so, as you'll find goalposts moving at the whims of the locals, but on the other hand don't be too inflexible either.

I love this discussion. Hopefully we shall finally discuss here all the nationalities. Let's face it - these and these are slow, others ass--les, those have old fashioned ideas and the damn Italians and Greeks, you don't wanna know. It's like when my friend Tommy heard his crazy grandma saying "I hate the damn Jews, the bloody nigrs, the chinks the damn Japs the gks, the gypsies !" And then Tommy asked her "How about the Arabs, do you like'em grandma?" "The Arabs? The Filthy ass--les?" "I bloody loathe them too!" "Are you a racist, by any chance, grandma?" "Who, me? Why, no, I am not!".

Let's start with the Japanese though.
I am at the University and the people I see here (with exceptions of course) JUST NEED TO BE HERE, they don't have to do anything.
But they can't leave. Weekend, they are here all the time. They sleep, play video games, read manga, loiter around, make coffee, do the dishes you name it.
But, leaving for a holiday, a week or more is wrong. How crazy is that? Are these people OK?
Honestly, I do here much more 'WORK' than the Japanese.
Someone told me that science in Japan is mediocre. I know exactly why. There is no need to be the best, since, when you are the best, the collective will silence you.
And so on. This is a great country, but we (gaijin) will never understand it.
They are a different subspecies, Asian people. And so are the blacks, the Indians etc.
And I am no racist.
Cheers
LB

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Call me crazy, but that sounds a lot like the "if you don't like it, move" argument. You even used "don't like" once and "move" twice. Whether you're telling (or if you prefer "suggesting") someone to leave his job or leave the country, either way the 'if you don't like it, leave' attitude is infantile. <hr></blockquote>Ok, I'll just have to call you crazy. You didn't even make mention of the adapting part I wrote. THAT is infantile. Sorry, but I tried to give constructive criticism. What would you have the OP do? Sit there and take it? Personally, if you can't adapt or fix the situation (as I have recommended), what is the sense in staying?

Now that we have more info from the OP, and he/she is willing to stick it out, things are behind us, but I resent people mind-reading what I wrote and ignoring some its more salient points.

As for that insipid nickname, it's given mostly because I try to present advice for newcomers in a way that gives them a more complete picture, and that completeness is often showing people a negative side here. It's practical advice, not doom and gloom, and I have often given people very constructive advice on positive aspects. I get 50 email messages a month from prospective teachers, have been asked to write FAQs, serve as moderators (and I do on one forum), and to proofread resumes (getting in return many pleasant thanks for my efforts). Nicknames roll off my back, especially in Internet forumland, and they themselves are marks of juvenile behavior, which is why I rarely use them.

My good friend " pudman " has been banned without explanation although apparently in connection with this thread so he has asked me to speak for him. Glenski is right. If the OP is not able to change the situation then why stick around. Better he/she seeks - as Daniel Boone put it - elbow room. And Glenski is right also in that although he may be the Morrissey or Janis Ian of the Forum, he does give helpful, realistic and practical advice/help. I am proud to call him " brother ". I hope "pudman" is allowed back soon from The Banned Lands (with explanation) because this is really a pain typing for him. Peace to all, goober

Bring back pudman! The sooner the better!

I also agree with Glenski, and am not really sure why he got attacked by so many people for his advice. There are some situations that you can't really change no matter what you do- possibly the OP's situation is one of them. In that case, you either have to find your own way to deal with it, or remove yourself from the situation.

My husband recently had to do this- he was setting up a new business with a workaholic Kiwi friend- yep, they do exist. Her work style is basically to make everything as hard as she possibly can and she also has a very abrasive personality, which he had tried to find a way to deal with, but when he felt he couldn't do anything more to salvage their working relationship, he left. He pulled out of the company even after he had put a lot of effort and a fair amount of his own money into it.

He is totally happy with his decision and doesn't regret it for a minute.

"If you don't like it, leave, or quit complaining" is sometimes perfectly fair advice.

And Glenski, if I may say, I think you and Pudman can co-exist if you try. You know he was joking about the Austrian/ Australian thing. Keep up the well-rounded advice and keep working on the sense of humour...