Paco and Pancho

Paco and Pancho are used as nicknames for Francisco in Spanish. The wiki page on the name Paco says that it derives from pa(ter) co(mmunitatis), father of the community, a title by which Francis of Assisi was known in his lifetime. But it doesn't cite any sources, and to me that explanation has the look of an etymology made up after the fact.

I don't know if we can do better than wiki, but does anyone have any other ideas? Or can anyone find a legitimate reference to St Francis having been called Pater Communitatis? Or to Paco ever having ben used as a nickname in Italy?

And it's not obvious to me how you'd get Pancho from Paco.

What brought this to mind was a BBC piece on the bullfighter Paquirri, Francisco Rivera, gored to death in the ring in the early 80s. Is that -irri a normal Andalusian diminutive? (He was from Cadiz.) It has sort of a Basque look to me.

You must have listened to BBC's History Hour on Saturdays.

Sorry, do not have an answer to your question.

Quite a few names beginning with F in Spanish have a diminutive starting in P. In English even - Pip for Philip. And discard parts of consonantal clusters. in forming diminutives. For example Poto and Pocho are diminutives of Alfonso, and Pico is a diminutive of Federico.

(I don't know whether it is relevant, but we can note neither Basque nor major native American languages have F, and when in Guatemala I met people who pronounced Fs as Ps. Basque doesn't seem to like pr as a consonantal cluster either, and I expect the same is true of major native american languages.)

And quite a lot of diminutives of names in Spanish end -cho. Eg Poncho for Alfonso, Pencho for Fulgencio.

So Paco and Pancho are within the range of the kind of changes you get in forming pet names in Spanish. Doesn't need that folk etymological explanation.

I spent a fiar amount of time with Google Translate, looking at various Spanish language sites.

A lot of them discuss Paco and Pepe. Pepe is diminutive for José. Supposedly it came from St. Joseph, who was designated "Pater Putativus" or PP. (Putative father of Jesus).

The sources were about half & half as to whether those Latin designations were the source or not. The ones that looked more authoritative to me seemed to go with baby talk or a toddler trying to pronounce his own name. One says it may have derived from Paquito as a diminutive.

Some say that Pepe came from Catalan Josep(e) or Italian Giuseppe, which does make sense.

A slightly different version of Pater Communitatis is that the name Francisco was written Phrancisco and abbreviated PHCO.

Then there is: En italiano, PACO es el acrónimo de Poverello d'Assisi Casto e Obbediente ( Pobre de Asís Casto y Obediente), referido a San Francisco de Asís. However, I only found a couple of references to that, so I think it's even less likely. (St. Francis was indeed called "Poverello d'Assisi.")

I found only a few hits on "Pater Communitatis" that weren't about St. Francis & Paco. Mostly in Latin. No definitive mention that Francis was ever called that.

Some say that Pepe came from Catalan Josep(e) or Italian Giuseppe, which does make sense.

It is also consistent with the general observation that lots of diminutives turn Fs into Ps in Spanish.

In Czech, the diminutive of Josef is Pepa. In Italian, they talk of Beppo and Beppe. In Basque the name is Joseba or Josepe.

It seems clear that Pepe doesn't need any post hoc folk etymology to explain it either.

I'm glad, in a way, to see that English-speakers aren't the only ones making up fake etymologies from acronyms.

Peppe and Peppino are nicknames for Giuseppe in Italian. Formed by reduplicating the end of the word. I'd be surprised if Pepe was formed otherwse, and I'd be surprised if anyone can find a record of St Joseph being titled Pater Putativus earlier than whatever the first record of Pepe is.

I found St. Joseph, Pater Putativus, in the mid 18th C. I'm sure it's older, but for some odd reason I'm not eager to rummage around European monasteries looking at manuscripts in Latin.

Not much luck on Pepe. No pre-1800 hits in Spanish on Ngram.

Have you got a link to that 18th century pater putativus, nutrax?

Be my guest

Joseph Pater putativus

Jofeph erat Pater putativus Chrifti

Jofeph, qui fuit pater putativus Chrifli.

If the links don;'t work, go to Google Books, search for "pater putativus" (in quotes). Got to Search tools and set a custom time range. I used 1/1/1600 to 12/31/1750.

Just now I changed it to 1/1/1500 to 1/1/1700 and got some 17th C. hits. A lot harder to read IOSEPH Christi Pater putativus fuit

Thanks to this thread, I am now stuck with an earworm Pnacho and Lefty

The etymolgy of Paco and Pancho is unknown. I mean none of the theories, rumours, hypothesis... about it has enough evidence(s) supporting it as to consider it the right/valid one.

What brought this to mind was a BBC piece on the bullfighter Paquirri, Francisco Rivera, gored to death in the ring in the early 80s. Is that -irri a normal Andalusian diminutive?

I'm not an expert in nicknames but the bullfighter you quote isn't the only Andalucian guy called Paquirri. Guitar player and singer Paquirri Guanter (aka Paquirri el Guanté) comes to my mind. However, I'd say Curro is more frequent in Andalucía as nickname for people called Francisco (e.g.: Curro Romero). Paco is also used in Andalucía (e.g.: Paco Vegara)...

neither Basque nor major native American languages have F

I don't have enough knowledge about native American languages but Basque has F.

Thanks, anillos.

Anillos, I have a question for you: Pancho is not normally used in Spain, is it? (other than when referring to a Latin American Pancho). I know lots of Spanish Pacos and some Frans, but I've never heard of a Spanish Pancho.

BTW, in Mexico the Paco/Pancho/Fran divide among Franciscos is, I would say, 75% / 20% / 5% respectively (based on my very personal estimation, no data to back this up of course).

(Sorry Vinny, for semi-hijacking your thread).

but Basque has F

It ihas only relatively recently acquired it, to the extent that it is sometimes proposed that the (incomplete) f -> h tendency in Spanish (eg filius -> hijo) was a Basque influence. For most of the post-Latin period, the presence of a Basque language without, or with few, Fs is an anti-F tendency in the Iberian peninsular.

Anillos, I have a question for you: Pancho is not normally used in Spain, is it?

Based too on my very personal stimation, no, it isn't. I'd say Fran, Paco, Kiko, Curro (mainly on the South) and Çesc (in Catalonia, from Catalan Françesc) are the most used... but Pancho is also used (see below).

I know lots of Spanish Pacos and some Frans, but I've never heard of a Spanish Pancho.

Let me introduce you a Spanish Pancho: [Pancho Varona|es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Varona].

It ihas only relatively recently acquired it

I'm not an expert on the history of Basque language. I knew F exists because the [march of San Sebastián|eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Sebastian_martxa] has a word with it. And that's why I pointed it out.

That solitary F turns out to be a particularly transparent recent borrowing. Festara! Dantzara! You don't need to know much about Basque to understand that.

That solitary F turns out to be a particularly transparent recent borrowing.

OK, let's quote a less transparent example: Froga. How many people without knowledge of Basque would be able to say its meaning?
No idea if that's a recent borrowing too though.

P.S.: I'm not discussing if the F is a recent borrowing in Basque as I don't have enough knowledge about it (so I can't comment). What I'm trying to point out is that it's not the same not to have a letter at all (as your words on #2 suggest) than to have recently borrowed it.

Froga is from Latin proba. It looks like it came from Latin directly, not via Spanish prueba, or if it came from Spanish, it must have come very early, before o became ue.

Maybe Basque allows f initially when it comes immediately before r.

Froga is from Latin proba. It looks like it came from Latin directly, not via Spanish prueba, or if it came from Spanish, it must have come very early, before o became ue.

There's another option. Among the translations of Spanish probar (the verb) to Basque are probatu and frogatu. Maybe, frogatu comes from probatu and probatu from probar... and Basque keep the /o/ when making the noun.

Some more info just in case someone was interested. According to [Wikipedia|en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_alphabet], F isn't among the letters included on the Basque alphabet to write words borrowed from languages that use those letters. I didn't find a source disagreeing with the info provided by Wikipedia about the F on Basque.

It's true most Basque words by F are (very) similar (sometimes even identical) to the same words in Spanish but it's also true there are some exceptions. Some examples: Fier (altivo in Spanish, naughty in English), Fazoin (modo or manera in Spanish, way in English), Findegi (refinería in Spanish, refinery in English), Fereka (caricia in Spanish, caress in English).

F could be a recent+ borrowing in Basque, I don't know, but it seems clear it's used on Basque words and it'll be a date when the borrowing won't be +recent anymore.

Fier (altivo in Spanish, naughty in English), Fazoin (modo or manera in Spanish, way in English), Findegi (refinería in Spanish, refinery in English), Fereka (caricia in Spanish, caress in English).

Fier is clearly, via some route, from Latin ferus (wild), perhaps via french (where fier today means proud, but comes from ferus originally). Both Portuguese and French have words like fazoin of that meaning, facon in French. Findegi wouldn't surprise me if it was from the same origin as words like fine, which is where refine comes from. Fereka no idea.

All I was trying to say, which is a far from original suggestion, is that a tendency away from F in Castillian might have had some assistance from Basque contact. I'm sorry I couldn't initially be bothered making the careful statement that while Old Basque didn't have F, it has been accepted into the language today, but remains a relatively uncommon letter and is found mostly words of borrowed origin: many other words borrowed into Basque with an F in them lost it (eg lore flower).

Though since we see Guiseppe/Peppo in Italian, I now realise that such a suggestion is hardly necessary or likely. It is probably more likely that F is just a harder thing for young children to say than P.

All I was trying to say, which is a far from original suggestion, is that a tendency away from F in Castillian might have had some assistance from Basque contact.

Those interested in that question can read the [Wikipedia article|es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambio_fon%C3%A9tico_%C2%ABf_%E2%86%92_h%C2%BB_del_espa%C3%B1ol] about it (in Spanish).