Mongolian Express dilemma & Nomad Festival Sept 2012

We are getting the Trans Mongolian Express from Moscow in August and will be stopping in Yekaterburg for a few days, Irkutsk for a week (lake Baikal) and Ulanbator for 2 weeks (arriving 13th September, departing 27th September).
I am finding it difficult to arrange trips (am trying Mongolia at the moment) as I can’t book trains until 45 days before departure. I am particulary interested in the Nomad Festival in Gun Galuut Reserve on 17th and 18th September. If I book the tickets and then can’t get the train I want then it is a big financial loss.
I have a number of questions for Mongolia i.e.
How do others manage to book trips without guaranteed train reservations?
Has anyone been and experienced this festival and is it worthwhile
Anyone got any itinerary ideas for a 2 week period in Mongolia – quite open to try a little of everything. Interested very much in scenery, wildlife and the people.
Thanks in advance for any help - Heather

Look into going out into the country and stay at some ger camps. The countryside is just incredible. You won't see clearer bluer skies anywhere in the world.

As far as your questions, you can go through a tour company which would handle the train stuff and all of that for you, or build it yourself. I knwo people who have done each...both equally sucessful. It all depends on your level of patience and whether you are the type of person that needs everythign nailed down before you set off.

The quick and easy would be to head to Terelj for a bit outside of UB...where there is ample hiking and horseriding and all of that. Or, you could head out west toward the Altai mountains which are just stunning.

Regardless of what you do, you'll find 2 weeks to not be enough, but you'll certainly have a splendid time.

If I book the tickets and then can’t get the train I want then it is a big financial loss.
I have a number of questions for Mongolia i.e. How do others manage to book trips without guaranteed train reservations?

There is an easy solution. It is actually cheaper and takes less time to take the bus from Ulan Ude to Ulan Bator. These UU based contacts have been known to purchase bus tickets for a small fee:
Denis at UU hostel
Natalia Myasnikova at myasnikova_nat@rambler.ru, cell phone +7 (9025) 648278 regarding bus tickets, accommodations, etc.

I would be very surprised if all tickets were sold out in September.

Regarding tours try Golden Gobi, Khongor Guesthouse, Stepperiders and look on the NEAsia branch for lots of other suggestions regarding tours and travel in Mongolia.

Ruth

Edited by: everbrite

Thanks everyone for your input. Unfortunately we can only stay in Mongolia for 2 weeks. I have contacted Khongor Guesthouse and they seem to be very good, helpful and quick to respond. Just a couple more questions :-

1. Everbrite, can I confirm, if we get the bus from UU to UB we will first have to get the train from Irkutsk to UU and then stay overnight. Does this not work out more expensive and take longer than just getting the train from Irkutsk to UB?
2. Nomad Festival, Gun Galuut 17th and 18th Sept. I can't find any information on the forum regarding this. I have been quoted USD70 each for the tickets and pay in advance (not including accommodation and food). Has anyone ever been to this festival and is it worthwhile - it sounds like a mini Nadaam which is what appealed.

Thanks for advice and help - Heather

Does this not work out more expensive and take longer than just getting the train from Irkutsk to UB?

You can take an overnight train from Irkutsk to UU and avoid the overnight in a hostel there. Time is still less than the bus. Train from Irkutsk to UU is 7-8 hours, bus is 12 hours. Direct train is 30-36 hours and the shorter time is only a couple of days a week. International train definitely is more expensive than train and bus even if you include the hostel cost.

Ruth

Thanks for your quick reply Ruth, that now makes sense. What is the train number we need to get from Irkutsk and is it daily (presumably can only book this 45 days in advance?). May be then worth getting a day train, staying overnight in UU and then getting the bus if it is cheaper than international train. We will get the opportunity to see something else then too. You've been a great help both now and on the Russian forum so thank you.

There are many trains each day from Irkutsk to Ulan Ude. Check http://www.poezda.net/en/ (it is easier to use for this than rzd.ru because it is in English). Just remember that Irkutsk is Moscow plus 5 hours and so is Ulan Ude. Also the train station and the bus station are NOT next to one another.

I would try to take a daytime train from Irkutsk and spend the day in Ulan Ude. There are a few things to see and do there. The #340 operates every other day and departs at 5:11 Moscow time (10:11 local time) and arrives at 12:57 Moscow time (17:57 local time). The #350 operates on the alternate days.

The bus is about 900-1100 rubles per person depending upon the markup charged by the person obtaining the tickets for you.

The train currently costs 1226.2 RUB in kupé. Figure that the summer markup is 20% so it would cost about 50 USD and the bus is 35 USD.

RealRussia.co.uk is charging about 158 pounds or about 250 USD for travel from Irkutsk to UB in July. I figure that their markup is about 30 percent which means that the international train should really cost about 195 USD. So yes, you will save money even if you spend a night in UU.

Ruth

Unfortunately we can only stay in Mongolia for 2 weeks

It's a really tough call between Hovsgul & Sth Gobi, but in that case I think I would go with the South Gobi trip of 7 days. Departure days for OTAM:

12) 2011/09/14- 2011/09/20

13) 2011/09/21 - 2011/09/27

Is it possible to squeeze in the latter, if you're departing 27th?
(Day 8: Ogii Lake - Ulaanbaatar. Drive back from the camp to Ulaanbaatar. Transfer to your accommodation.) What time does the train depart for China?

Thanks Ruth - Real Russia charging GBP140 Irkutsk to UB on train 362 12th September 2nd class - so indeed much cheaper via your method, plus we get to see something of UU. Also, real russia charge GBP196 1st class UB to Beijing. I have contacted Solid Ways in UB and they charge USD220, which is 25% cheaper. I think I will also get my visa for China once in Mongolia.

Thanks Chrisj - I am actually going to extend my departure and leave UB on 30th September which will give us more time, rather than squeeze it in. Departure 21/9/2012 for tour fits in well with our proposed trip to the Nomad Festival.

All starting to come together! Thanks all - Heather

I think I will also get my visa for China once in Mongolia.

Not a good idea as the rules for obtaining Chinese visas in Mongolia seem to change all the time. Better to pay a little more and get it at home to be sure that you get a visa. There have been points in the past when people arrived in UB hoping to get a Chinese visa and it wasn't possible so they had to fly from UB to Hong Kong and get one there.

At present you need all nights accommodations plus tickets for travel departing China and all you get is a 30 days tourist visa. Chinese Visa in UB

I have contacted Solid Ways in UB and they charge USD220, which is 25% cheaper.

Again you can travel for less than half this price if you don't take the international train. Instead take the train to the border, take a jeep across the border and then take either a train, a bus, a plane or even a taxi if you are enough people to Beijing and it will be less than the international train. Try searching for a post by jiejie about her visa run to Mongolia.

Ruth

Heather, These are the prices we got from RR for the UB - Beijing leg:
Deluxe sleeper (two berths soft sleeper/ shower compartment) currently cost £205 one way per person
Soft sleeper (four berths soft sleeper) currently cost £191 one way per person
Hard sleeper (four berths hard sleeper) currently cost £144 one way per person
Your $ quote is around £150 which is pretty damn good for 1st class (is that deluxe?)

We tried to organise the whole thing ourselves a few months ago and found some of the Russian railways sites pretty difficult to get prices (this could have been because we were doing it far in advance, not within the 45 days) so we opted for Real Russia who, incidentally, have been fantastic and as long as we get the berth promised and there are no problems I won't mind having paid a little more. Just means we have to rough it a little later on in the trip.

The issue comes when you have to time all your visas, make sure you've got all the required bumpf and hope that you get your desired date on the train because 45 days isn't long when you're dealing with the Russian, Mongolian and Chinese visa offices!

We went for a Russian transit visa as we are just flying into Moscow and boarding the train. They said, in the visa office, that there isn't such thing as a transit visa but there is. I guess if you're stopping off in Russia you'll have the tourist visa though.

Hi Peep_squeak - funnily enough I found some of your postings earlier today and see you are doing a similar journey. Below is the info from Solid Ways - they have been excellent. Real Russia have also been fantastic - quick responses and very helpful

From Ulaanbaatar to Beijing
Train # 24 at 07.15, departs on 27 Sep, Thu in Ulaanbaatar and arrives on 28 Sep, Fri in Beijing at 14.04.
First class /2 berths in 1 cabin/ -220 $ per person
Second class /4 berths in 1 cabin/ - 145 $ per person

From Ulaanbaatar to Beijing
Train # 04 at 07.15, departs on 30 Sep, Sun in Ulaanbaatar and arrives on 01 Oct, Mon in Beijing at 14.04.
First class /2 berths in 1 cabin/ -220 $ per person
Second class /4 berths in 1 cabin/ - 145 $ per person

Like you, we will probably try and claw back some money whilst in SE Asia. I am having a bit of a headache with visas as we need Russia, Mongolia and China. To compound that we leave for our RTW trip on 30th July to Norway so need to get it sorted before we go ideally. All part of the fun.

Keep in touch, would like to hear about your plans and if I can reciprocate I will. Heather

peep_squeak
>We went for a Russian transit visa as we are just flying into Moscow and boarding the train. They said, in the visa office, that there isn't such thing as a transit visa but there is. I guess if you're stopping off in Russia you'll have the tourist visa though.

To get a transit visa you would need to show your plane tickets and your train tickets and you would not be permited to stop more than 2 nights in Moscow before boarding the train and no stops along the way. Because it is so difficult to get and show the train tickets, transit visas for this purpose are almost unheard of but not impossible.

Ruth

I looked into transit visas for Russia one year but decided against it because the cost was exactly the same as that of the tourist visa....except we had a shorter time frame and couldnt' deviate at all. In the end we got LOIs and just went for the tourist. It was much easier and no questions were asked of us as we went through Russia on our way to Mongolia.

jpyrek - depends upon your passport whether the cost is the same. For US passport holders it is but for many others the cost is about half the cost of the tourist visa.

Ruth

Thanks Ruth. Are you sure we are allowed 2 nights in Moscow on a transit visa? If that's the case that would really help as the flights on the day are arriving at 1645 and the train leaves at 2130 but we've to get to the opposite side of Moscow in rush hour so I'd prefer to arrive the day before if we can.

We've got the train tickets and are yet to book the flight to Moscow....which opens up another question, how to get to Moscow.

Cheap flights = getting into Moscow with very little time to get to the train station
Earlier flights = £250c. each
Overland (and sea) option = http://www.seat61.com/Finland.htm#Route%20map to Helsinki or Tallinn then train from there. Or you can even get to St Pete's. I can't seem to get train prices from Esbjerg - Helsinki/Tallinn.

Anybody got a opinion on this? It certainly looks like a great trip.

If we are allowed a couple of days in Moscow on a transit visa we will take the cheap flight the previous day.

To get a transit visa with train tickets, you must actually present the train tickets. What is your actual routing? then I am more likely to be able to tell you what will be permitted.

Ruth

Hi, I just picked up the tickets at the weekend so will be going to the visa office next week. Our route is London to Moscow (flight) then onto the Trans Mongolian train with a 5 days stop in Mongolia and back on to the train to Beijing. No stops in Russia.

When I went to the Russia visa office a few months ago they, firstly, said there isn't such thing as a transit visa then when pushed they said you can get one but the length of the visa is determined by your transit route so she said we could get 10 days (the train is only 5) but I didn't have much confidence in the girl's info by that time.

She is correct, the maximum for a transit visa in 10 days but that is usually only given when people board the train to/from Vladivostok. It is one night in Moscow, 7 nights on the train and one night in Vladivotsok. Nine nights is 10 calendar days.

The problem for you is that you MUST show the tickets for travel into and out of Russia. So I seriously doubt that you can do this.

A maximum of two nights are permited on a transit visa IF it is required for connections. So, for example, if your flight arrived on a Sunday but your train to Mongolia did not depart until Tuesday, then you could spend Sunday night and Monday night in Moscow.

The train from Moscow to Ulan Bator does take 5 days (actual travel time is 4d, 8h 55 m) so in this case were you able to show the tickets, you should be able to get 7 days for your transit visa.

Ruth