Mandarin Chinese - moving on

I've been studying Mandarin using the Michel Thomas Method and Pimsluer Levels 1-3. I thought the MTM was very good, but the presenter sounds like a therapist teaching people who have had some traumatic experience learning Mandarin in the past - a little too kid gloves for me. I studied the Pimsluer straight afterwards, and the change in pace was palpable - the speakers spoke at normal Chinese speed (i.e. 100mph)! I was relieved that I was understood when I spoke to Chinese people in Malaysia, as I had gone through both courses without knowing for sure if I was pronouncing it correctly (I studied them in Thailand).

I was wondering where to take things fom here. I've studied Thai before (still a work in progress) and was able to learn the writing system straight away, so didn't have to bother with the rubbish transliteration one, which help me alot in the long-term. Would it be possible (and advisable) to go straight to learning the characters without learning Pinyin. I read that even Chinese kids learn Pinyin first, is this true?

I was thinking of buying the Teach Yourself book and CD (the normal one, not the beginners, which just seems to be a watered-down version of the former) and China: Empire of Living Symbols (not strictly a study book I know, but it seems worth buying nonetheless). I've also begun to work through the Chinesepod series, which has been excellent so far. What other books or online resources can people recommend (especially with regard to learning the writing)? Unfortuately, I won't be going to China for at least a year, so self-study will be the only way I can learn.

Thanks

I'll be in Thailand for the next year and the big (but expensive) bookshop in the Siam Paragon shopping centre in Bangkok is the only place I know which sells a decent range of material. If anyone has any suggestions of where to buy any books (and Chinese films with both Chinese and English subtitles), I'd appreciate the info.

Would it be possible (and advisable) to go straight to learning the characters without learning Pinyin. I read that even Chinese kids learn Pinyin first, is this true?

Because Chinese doesn't use an alphabetic script, if you were only to learn characters you would still need some system to help you remember the pronunciation - pinyin is as good as any (and I would say better than most). I think you will make more progress - especially with the spoken language - if you use pinyin, especially as you will not be constantly surrounded by characters (e.g. on signs, where frequent exposure to characters in regular use can help you to memorise their appearance and meaning).

I read that even Chinese kids learn Pinyin first, is this true?

In mainland China, yes - but not in Hong Kong, where children dive straight into characters, without any formal use of a phonetic system to support this.

Pinyin is important, especially if this is a language you really want to continue to use. Knowing pinyin has helped me be able to text and type in Chinese characters and can sometimes help when using a dictionary. Like stormboy points out, it is a good basis for knowing the pronunciation. I really don't think it should take all that long for you to learn, especially in the scheme of things (you'll be spending the rest of your life learning characters!). It's worth it.

I also like chinesepod.com and I haven't found any other decent podcasts out there.

Would it be possible (and advisable) to go straight to learning the characters without learning Pinyin. I read that even Chinese kids learn Pinyin first, is this true?

Yes, Chinese kids do learn pinyin first, and no it would neither be the smallest bit possible nor advisable to skip this important step. Apart from anything else, if you ever want to type in Chinese or text on a Chinese cell phone, pinyin is essential, as Chinese keyboards are all based on the principle of predictive text (e.g. I type "ni hao" and the computer guesses that I almost certainly mean 你好, "hello," though it will also offer other possibilities in decreasing order of probability). And, as has been pointed out, you also need to know pinyin if you want to be able to use English to Chinese dictionaries.

(You are also vastly underestimating the difficulty of the task before you. The Thai alphabet, complicated as it is, only has a few dozen letters and letter-combinations to learn. To achieve even very basic literacy in Chinese, you need to know about 3000 characters, many of which are extremely similar to one another. There's no analogy whatsoever to learning an alphabetic writing system.)

And I hate to tell you, but I, too, went through Pimsleur 1-3, and the speakers do not speak at normal Chinese speed! Nothing like. In retrospect, too, I think Pimsleur was almost a complete waste of time: their failure to explain such basic concepts as tone sandhi (the way tones change in relation to one another) meant that my Chinese pronunciation was miles off until I started learning from a native speaker. It took months to undo the Pimsleur damage.

It's not a textbook, but by far the best Mandarin reference on my bookshelf is this one. For textbooks, you might see if you can find anything from BLCUP in Thailand: they publish the most popular books used in Chinese for Foreigners beginner classes here in Beijing, including the "New Practical Chinese" series and the "Conversational Chinese 301" series.

Thanks one and all for the advice. Seems like learning pinyin is essential.

I did notice that the tones seem to follow rules not explained in the Pimsleur course. For example the "you" in "thank you" (che che nee") seems o be a short falling tone rather thn the long falling/rising tone it normally is. I think that learning Thai has taught me not to demand a thorough explaination of everything and to just go with the flow and imitate as precisely as possible rather than think things out too much. I agree, they shoud have mentioned it, but I think it's ok, so long as you copy the speaker as closely as possible.

The increase in speed from the MTM course to the Pimsleur took a bit of getting used to and I guess I'll have to go through it again when I start watching Chinese movies and speaking to native speakers!

The grammar book looks excellent, thanks for that (it even got a glowing review from the author of the MTM course). I'll try and gab some of tose textbooks as well.

This next step is still some way off yet, but I may as well ask t while I have everyones attention. I took a Thai language course in Bangkok at the beginning of my studies and, although I thought the teacher was very good, I felt that the whole approach just wasn't right for me. I've since took the attitude that the whole of Thailand is my school and have just focussed on being able to go about my everyday business using English as little as possible. I love being able to learn something from my books and just go and test it out straight away on the nearest unsuspecting victim. I've found that the Thai people are very encouraging at the beginning and soon move past that very kindly, but slightly patronising, attitude to become stern but construcive critics when they see that you've moved past the beginning stages and want to understand the language properly. If Chinese people are half as good as this, then I think I'll be alright. Have people found that just being in China and putting yourself out there is enough, or do you think that a structured class is still essential? If so, is taking a class at one stage more benificial than another (eg at beginner or advanced level)?

Thanks again

Just a quick extra question regarding the writing:
If 3000 characters is enough for basic literacy, how about intermediate literacy? Roughly how many characters would the average educated Chinese adult know?

Since I'll be living in a small town in Thailand without anyone to practise with, I think the writing will be a main focus.

According to Wikipedia 2000 is needed for basic literacy and the average Chinese person knows 4000-5000 characters. There are over 85,000 known characters, but most of them are no longer in use.

There’s no excuse for not knowing pinyin.

If you know how to pronounce Beijing, Shanghai and fengshui then you can figure almost half of it out straight away. Bei, hei, lei, mei, pei, jing, ling, bing, shang, hang, bang, rang, feng, meng, peng, deng, shui, hui, rui.

Mao Zedong. So now you know: mao, hao, pao, rao, ze, le, te, dong, long, nong.

There are a few odd or counterintuitive syllables that just have to be learned over the course of a few hours and then you’re away.

I suggest you get rid of any book you have that tries to teach you another phonetic system. Pinyin is all you need. It rocks.

If you have a book that tells you the correct Mandarin pronunciation of “thank you” is “che che ni” then I would suggest you burn it and piss on the ashes.

I’ve never taken a class to learn Chinese. For me, that seems slow and pointless. Some people think it’s absolutely essential for them, however. Courses for horses.

My methods:

1. Cram characters using flashcards
2. Chat with hot Chinese chicks on myspace.cn
3. Eavesdrop on my colleagues
4. Watch American movies on youku.com and pay attention to the Chinese subtitles
5. Keep my eyes open for adverts, shop signs, restaurant menus etc.
6. Bug my bilingual friends and work colleagues via msn to explain stuff to me.
7. Set up multiple email accounts and keep re-registering with Chinesepod.com. Listen to the lessons on an mp3 player when I walk down to the shops or whatever
8. Sometimes use jollo.com for online translation when all else fails - though you need to take that with a pinch of msg.
9. Occasionally talk to a Chinese person.

If you know how to pronounce Beijing, Shanghai and fengshui then you can figure almost half of it out straight away. Bei, hei, lei, mei, pei, jing, ling, bing, shang, hang, bang, rang, feng, meng, peng, deng, shui, hui, rui.

Um....not really. Mandarin Chinese has 422 morphological combinations, exclusive of tone. Still, learning pinyin is dead easy. Even the slowest students should be able to master the system in a matter of days.

I’ve never taken a class to learn Chinese. For me, that seems slow and pointless. Some people think it’s absolutely essential for them, however. Courses for horses.

C_Z may well be one of those rare, gifted, intuitive language learners that absorbs language mostly by osmosis. At least, I hope he is...rather than the much more common duffers ones overhears in Beijing, boasting of their language prowess while bleating some toneless something only vaguely recognizable as Chinese by very sympathetic listeners. 99% of learners, however, will benefit from a class, especially at the beginning. The methods C_Z mentions are fine supplements, but for most learners they're a poor substitute for someone drilling you and ruthlessly, repeatedly correcting your pronunciation and word-order lapses. Once you have a solid grounding, it's much easier to continue studying on your own.

"thank you" (che che nee")

Lesson 1 in hanzi (= Chinese characters) and pinyin: 谢谢你 , xie xie ni.

If so, is taking a class at one stage more benificial than another (eg at beginner or advanced level)?

At the beginner's level, for the reasons zashibis gave you. It's good to have a proper start in using tones, pinyin and characters. Once you've taken a beginner's course, you'll know what you should be paying attention to when studying on your own.

OP, why don't you watch Chinese TV programmes online? Or Chinese movies, first without subtitles, then with it? It's be both educational and hopefully entertaining....

Thanks, I've just bought "Beginner's Chinese Script", so am about to work on that. I've also managed to buy a couple of Chinese language films, but will buy more in Bangkok, as the range ere is pretty limited. Any recommendations on films, music or childrens books?

China Daily today published a list of essential Chinese movies

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-04/20/content_7693171.htm

So, you have enrolled in language lessons and sworn you will master Putonghua for that authentic China experience (Sigh! Easier said than done). You have booked a spot on any and every culture trip that promises to take you off the beaten track to see the "real" China and you have scoured every downtown area for a genuine, untouched hutong "to see how locals really lived". (But where, oh where, are these gems ?)

Now, how about catching "the films you must see before you leave China"? Here they are, all of them award-winners, this list inspired by a lecture given on this very topic by movie aficionado Breen O'Reilly, who teaches Film Studies at the International School of Beijing.

Thanks

Try the videos here:

http://news.cctv.com/video/index.shtml

One of our local librarians had a brilliant idea and, despite objections from higher authorities, has implemented it in our local library. She has compiled and computerised a list of the languages used in all the foreign films in the library's stock so that, if someone specifically wants a movie in Mandarin (or Portuguese, Spanish or Cantonese etc.) it can be found easily on the catalogue by typing in the language. Her rationale is that, with so many people learning a second language and her constantly being asked about films in a particular language, she decided to go through all the foreign films and find out their language, to make it easy (for her and others) to find films in a desired language. She is going to push for it in the other library branches and I am writing a letter of support.

As a result of the new catalogue, I have borrowed Red Sorghum+ and +Shangai Dreams+. Others I found under Mandarin include +Kekexili - Mountain Patrol+; +Riding Alone for Thousands of Miles+; +Seven Swords+; +Springtime In A Small Town+; and +Three Times . As to the merits of the films, we'll see!

BTW - To Live is in Cantonese, isn't it?

Oops - that should read Shanghai Dreams .

#17, according to imdb, it's Mandarin. Gong Li starred in it, so I think they could be right.

# 19 orangutan - Thanks for that. I had printed out the Breen O'Reilly list # 14 link (above) and searched the library catalogue (all branches) by the film names. The info. on the computer said To Live was in Cantonese (which may be what's on the video jacket - but, hey, perhaps some idiot made a guess), so I'll go to the branch that has it, borrow it, and find out for myself. I'll come back to you on it - and I'll be jolly pleased if it IS Mandarin!

No worries, a quick check on amazon.de also stated that it's in Mandarin.

Watched Shanghai Dreams (Mandarin) today. It is set in the 1980s and is about families who moved from Shanghai to work in factories in the west of China (the "third front") in the 1960s and 1970s. Although when it started I thought it might not be up to much, it turned out to be a very good film. I won't say more or I'll spoil it for those who haven't yet seen it.

Maybe we should start a new thread on Chinese film reviews, but since we're on the subject, I'll pitch in with a couple of my favourites :-) :
Lost in Beijing - loved this one. Set in present-day Beijing, a countryside immigrant falls pregnant after getting raped (?) by her boss. How everyone deals with the the situation (including their spouses) just seems, with my limited experience of travelling in China, very Chinese to me. Impossible to imagine the same film being made in the West.
Blue Gate Crossing - Set in Taiwan, a girl acts as a go-between between her friend and the boy she likes, but the boy, inevitably falls for her instead. Lot's of teenage angst for sure, but I thought it was a really charming, understated film nonetheless.

By the way, Amazon is a good place to look at reviews for some of the lesser known films (if you didn't know already). If you're ever in Thailand, yu can usually pick up Chinese films from the shops inthe big mega-malls for under 100 baht. Most of the time, they'll have the original Mandarin soundtrack, a dubbed Thai one, and English and Thai subtitles too (plus occasionally Chinese ones as well). Very handy if you're crazy enough to be learning Mandarin and Thai at the same time...

One final thing, if the box says "Chinese" under language, it's always been Mandarin Chinese in my experience. Cantonese tracks are always listed as "Cantonese", Mandarin as "Chinese", or more simply "Mandarin".

Good idea to make this a Chinese movie thread. To that end here are some possible search words so this will be picked up ...

Chinese films
Chinese movies
Chinese cinema
Mandarin films
Recommended Mandarin Chinese films.

Now off to do a search to see if that works!!!

Yep - a search on Chinese films in Mandarin put this thread first.

The movie that got me started on foreign films as a teenager was Raise the Red Lantern. I loved that movie and would spend a good hour before it started tuning my crappy portable TV to pick up the station signal as it wasn't on a station that everyone could get clearly (SBS for the Aussies).