Lost Tibet

I am new to Tibet and its history. When visiting a high school recently in Northern California I noticed a world globe. It did not show Tibet; it was all part of China. The only identification was "The Plateau of Tibet". I've check recent world atlases. The same thing. Even the literature I've been reading lately indicates that, due to the overwhelming Chinese influence, "Tibet" is ceasing to exists, or has already ceased. I guess in a few years even the TAR designation will disappear. Too bad.

Province of China Xizang, world government's accept since 50 years plus.

OP, see if you can get the book titled "Mapping the Tibetan World" published in 2000. Explains a lot.

I guess in a few years even the TAR designation will disappear. Too bad.

And very wrong, just ask the Sami of Scandinavia, who 's history is just as bad as anything happening to the Tibetan people during the cultural revolution.

Free Sikkim!

You have to read both side. Western materials on Tibet is too much of propaganda and hate speech. I read it on the Internet every day. I have also met some Westerners in person. They read and only read from these materials, and then tell these one-side stories to others they know. It is easily to be "brainwashed", much like an infectious disease.

For every major issue in the world, there must be some reason behind it. I have been to Tibet for six times, as well as Dharamshala in India, where the current Dalai Lama live in exile. I see his holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, who is currently living in a poor Indian mountainous town with monkeys (There are many monkeys in the region.), leaving his mighty Potala Palace behind. As Chinese, I feel really sorry to him. I hope the government lets him back. I know he wanted to be back.

Tibetan people is no different from other people in China. They are Chinese citizens. English is not a good language to describe this situation, because the lacks of a word to describe this nation in East Asia. They are usually calling it "China", but when they are talking about "China", they tend to have only the Han ethnic group (92% of total Chinese population) included.

Chinese is calling their own country "Zhongguo", a nation entity within its implicit boundary. Anyone live within this boundary is its citizen. While a native American can be a citizen of the United States, an European, if he decided to move to North America, he can also be a citizen of the United States. "Zhongguo", as a big and vast country, has many distinct ethnic groups, with their own distinct culture and language. Tibetan is just one of them.

It was not Mao who invaded Tibet 50 years ago. There was a world order in East Asia, completely different from the modern world order established by the West. Under this world order, Tibetan people have been, together with Mongolian, Manchuian and Han Chinese people, live in a same dynasty called the Great Qing for hundreds of years. Since the fall of Qing in 1912, many people consider Tibet still part of the new nation, called Republic of China. You can find a map of Republic of China published in 1910s or 1920s. China was a weak then, it is the chaos created by the British-led West. It is the West who is the troublemaker.

Tibetan people are the first class citizens of "Zhongguo". If this country become a democracy one day. They can vote, like anyone else in the nation. Dalai Lama, as a citizen of "Zhongguo", if he want, he can be voted as the President of China. I don't see why this can't happen.

Well, I believe people should enjoy their freedom. I don't oppose the free of Tibet. Not only Tibet should be free, but also the entire nation. It is Tibetan's freedom to decide whether it would be stay with the other part of "Zhongguo" as one single nation entity, or otherwise. The media from the West always says how many Tibetan people were killed by the "Chinese", but do you know far more Han Chinese people were killed by the "Chinese" about the same time? It is not particular to the Tibetans. In my opinion, Tibetan people should join other ethnic groups in China, struggle against our same enemy. This is the real "Too bad".

yaogya2000:
Tnx for your info and perspective. Most interesting, and it certainly adds to the debate. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to reply.

I suspect that most of the maps you see in No Cal and elsewhere are now made in China and exported, and of course they are going to depict Tibet that way. I think if you can find materials produced elsewhere, you might find an alternative presentation.

Westwood:
I just ordered the book.

yaogya2000:

I understand what you're trying to say, however, I have a burning question. My readings indicate that the Potala is "Lhasa's cardinal landmark". That for centuries it was the seat of the Buddhists monks, the heart of their religion and of the country.. Its 1,000 rooms were a beehive of prayer and activity. But I read that now the Potala is an empty shell. That it "...lies dormant like a huge museum...". No monks are allowed to pray there as before. What happened?

It´s all in a name : neither Tibet or Xizang is the word used by Tibetans , but at least Tibet comes without the colonial tinge of the "Western Treasurehouse". The book suggested in # 2 is very good on this background , and in giving an idea on just how big the Tibetan cultural sphere actually is : if the present TAR would become independent today , then the majority of Tibetans would be on the outside. One striking example of this is that many of the Dalai Lamas, including the present , come from Amdo.

"You have to read both side. Western materials on Tibet is too much of propaganda and hate speech."

A lot of pro-Tibet writing is simplistic and presents a disneyfied view on Tibetan history , like the myths of a warfree state , true. Official and pro-Chinese history writing is often even worse. Very good book on the subject : History as Propaganda , which deals with the mythology from both sides.

I´m reminded of this , when I read #4 , despite the common ground in saying that freedom is what everyone needs in present PRC.

"Since the fall of Qing in 1912, many people consider Tibet still part of the new nation, called Republic of China. You can find a map of Republic of China published in 1910s or 1920s."

The post-imperial Chinese state considered Mongolia and Tibet part of China , and produced maps saying the same. Mapmaking was a traditional tool of extending claims of territory , the first Chinese maps making these claims of Tibet were made by Jesuit monks in China in the late 16th century , who used Mongols as cartographic spies - similar to the later British use of the pundits in Himalaya , coming from a similar lack of access. Mongols and Tibetans probably didn´t see themselves as part of China after the Mongolian declaration of independence in 1911, the expulsion of the Chinese envoy (Amban) in Lhasa and his troops to Calcutta (!) in 1912, and the Tibetan-Mongolian treaty of 1913 : "“Whereas Mongolia and Tibet having freed themselves from the Manchu dynasty and separated themselves from China, have become independent states.."

"Tibetan people have been, together with Mongolian, Manchuian and Han Chinese people, live in a same dynasty called the Great Qing for hundreds of years."

Tibetans in general in the central U Tsang province were nearly unaware of China : in Lhasa you had a very small group of Chinese traders (probably not much bigger than the Nepali trading community ) , and the Amban and his guards , living where Drapchi prison is situated today. They were reliant on interpreters or had to learn Tibetan : even in the late sixties , many years after the invasion , less than five percent understood Chinese.( Radio Lhasa broadcasted in English and Chinese as well from 1948 , this would have been directed at foreign listeners.) Chinese currency ( instead of the Tibetan srang ) did not come in to use until after ´59 , after the Dalai Lamas escape to India. Chinese military presence was a complete fiction : the 1904 British invasion was announced around six months in advance , and there was not a single Chinese officer present to meet the foreign army , or to negiotate the peace treaty afterwards, or in the border treaty with British India in 1914 ( the McMahon line ). This was a similar pattern to the war with Ladakh in the 17th century , and the later conflicts with Bhutan.

"Tibetan people are the first class citizens of "Zhongguo"

Consider then the curious case of Woeser : a Tibetan dissident , married to an equally well known Han dissident , who can´t leave the country to receive the Freedom of Expression Prize , which then is picked up by her husband.

Hi Yaohua

If Han people and Tibetan people are equal Chinese Citizens, can you answer the following questions:

1. I have a Tibetan friend in Sichuan and a Chinese friend. When I visit my Tibetan friend she is not allowed to have foreigners stay at her house. When they do, she is interrogated by the police. When I visit my CHinese friend, I an able to stay at his house he has no problems with the police.

2. How long does it take the average Chinese person to get a passport? It often takes a Tibetan 1+ years if at all.

3. Why does it seem that most of the shops in the Tibetan regions of China are owned by Han chinese and not Tibetans? Do Han Chinese have preferential treatment to getting small business loans?

4. Why is Ngaba closed to foreigners, what is happening there now? Does this happen in areas primary populated by Han Chinese?

5. Why are the educational standard in Tibetan regions so much worse than in other parts of China? Do Tibetans have equal access to affordable education?

6. What would happen to you if you tried to have a public debate on autonomy in the Tibetan Autonomous Region, especially if your views differed from the governments view? What would happen to a Tibetan?

7. If you where put on trial, would the government allow a lawyer from hong kong to represent you? There are a number if high profile legal cases of Tibetans on trial, who are offered free legal representation by Hong Kong Lawyers, but they are always denied by the government.

Sincerely

Don

There are numerous historical maps that show Tibet independent of China. What many people don't know is that China made claims that Bhutan and Nepal were also part of China as well, but due to the presence of the British in the Indian Sub-Continent, the Chinese could never enforce their claims

Maps 9-13 I have provided links for are from the website of the Hong Kong University - Science and Technology Library
http://library.ust.hk/info/exhibit/maps-9706/map-gallery2.html

1. 1935 - look at the glass map following link
   http://www.marybakereddylibrary.org/exhibits/mapparium

This map is a hollow globe that you can walk through if you are even in Boston

1. 1898 - http://www.archetypal.com/xanadu/gallery/tibetan_map.html

2. 1877 - http://tibettruth.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/map_hindoostan01_xl1.jpg

3. 1888 - http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map%20of%20Tibet%201888.htm

4. 1906 - http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map%20of%20Tibet%201906.htm

5. 1932 - http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/maps/Map%20of%20Tibet%201932.htm

6. Evolutionary maps of Chinese Empire
   http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/china/haxchina.html

7. A 1892 map of China that show both Tibet and Mongolia as part of China. Why are the Chinese making not making claims on Mongolia?

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/asia_1892_amer_ency_brit.jpg

1. 1625 map of China with Sichuan and West not part of China
   http://library.ust.hk/res/lib-db/MAPS/disk1/PDF/IMG0046.pdf

2. 1650 - http://library.ust.hk/res/lib-db/MAPS/disk1/PDF/IMG0047.pdf
   Map of Asia, with Tibetan regions part of India and Tartaria

3. Map of Inda, with Tibetan regions apparently in Inida
   http://library.ust.hk/res/lib-db/MAPS/disk1/PDF/IMG0024.pdf

12 http://library.ust.hk/res/lib-db/MAPS/disk2/PDF/IMG0040.pdf

1. http://library.ust.hk/res/lib-db/MAPS/disk1/PDF/IMG0077.pdf

To #9
I have lived in a Tibetan family for 2 years now. After 1 1/2 years I managed to convince them that we need to go to gonganqu to register me. No problems. A few police men checked my passport and took a copy of it. They asked why I'm here and I answered that I like it here.

And as to the educational standard. What figures are you comparing? Many nomads do not let their kids go to school as they are more useful at home. And many don't want to go. An example is that a school in Zhongdian is having a course about green technology and eco-tourism, which I think would be extremely beneficial as they learn computers, language, electrical technology, energy auditing, construction techniques and plumbing. The course is completely free, even bus tickets to arrive are paid for, as is food and room. The course accepts 15 students. I have 5 applications and people interested in it........1! Driving tourists makes more money and you don't need to study for that. Just get somebody to buy you a car.

A complex situation I won't buy into certainly in English or French.

I can give it to you in Finnish if you want

Not even in Chinese, sorry.

Is Chinese the only language you can read or what is the problem with other languages?

China took over Tibet 60 years ago and at that time and for a long time nobody cared.
That is until Buddhism and the Dalai Lama became fashionable. Even the Dalai Lama is smart enough to say that independence isn't the solution.
I was last year in Tibet and I was might disappointed because indeed I think that many people write about the country as some kind of Buddhist Disney World. But the country is very changed. It became a tourist attraction and all is used to make money. I was there 17 days last year and had enough chance to look around.

This year I will visit Bhutan and Sikkim. Bhutan has continuous problems at the border with China that just builds roads and uses Bhutan ground. Sikkim has army on the border to protect against the Chinese lack of respect for the borders of India. The South Chinese sea is a place where Chinese continuously invade the territorial waters of Vietnam and the Philippines and occupy islands claiming they are theirs.

I lived in China 9 months in 2007/2008 and went often to Hong kong. I red some articles in the local newspapers (English written) where it was written that the Chinese had taken over so much of the local administration and were busy destroying archives that are the only source of history writing. Together With archives with historical material records of ownership of vessels, ground and buildings were also being destroyed. It would became impossible in the future to claim whatever, because the records simply are gone. Meantime there is nearly nobody who speaks english in most shops in Hong Kong. It starts looking like China and soon free press will also be history there.
The communist party of China just celebrated 90 years and instead of going for some changes, they start new propaganda programs to remember the people that if their life is better now than it once was they should thank the party. but many people want changes, more social society and more freedom of expression.

When I was in China we had to go through a lot of work to get a satellite to receive foreigner TV in the home. At that time I watched a documentary on a Australian channel about the hunger and deaths caused by the five year programs for agriculture in the fifties in China. Even in the sixties they were still surviving in many places with nearly nothing to eat. The young chinese don't know about this and their parents won't tell it. Sad things are not nice to talk about.

Despise my criticism I still like China, because the country is more than it's government.

Nomad. Opposing views that are hard to assimilate. That's all.