Hu R. Yu?

News from Texas: Can't those Asians just choose a name that is easier for Americans to deal with?

Edited by shilgia, twice, because apostrophes made TT eat the link.

I thought this was strange:

Ko told the committee that people of Chinese, Japanese and Korean descent often have problems voting and other forms of identification because they may have a legal transliterated name and then a common English name that is used on their driver’s license on school registrations.

This seems like something that people can control themselves. Why do they put themselves in the position of having different names on different official documents, if it's known to cause confusion with things like voting?

There's something to that, yes. If 李元春 has Li Yuan Chun in her passport, but goes by Julia Li in daily life, that is possibly confusing, especially if 李元春 can't remember if she registered as a voter as Li Yuan Chun or Yuan Chun Li or Julia Li.

But saying “Rather than everyone here having to learn Chinese — I understand it’s a rather difficult language — do you think that it would behoove you and your citizens to adopt a name that we could deal with more readily here?” just seems an odd solution to this problem.

Absolutely. It seemed to speak for itself so I didn't bother to comment. It's just that I was expecting a different article before I read the link. The argument made by Ko that I quoted above really seems strange. I have a nickname that resembles my real name and I'd still never put it on an official document--and I hate to be called it. You can call youself Mike in your daily life if you want to, regardless of whether your legal name is Michael or Masaharu.

I wouldn't say it was a common problem here in NZ but it's not completely unknown - the issue is actually more relevant for older immigrants who arrived here around the 60s and 70s and appears when they need to get documentation such as passports or applying for loans for property.

The main problem - put simply - is they recorded their names in a particular format/structure when they arrived because that was the 'normal' way of doing it here (ie 'told' to record it that way). When later on down the track, particularly when the children grew up, the have realised that the names aren't actually the same as their original refugee papers or even the items they may have set accounts (say bank, electricity or gas) up with when they arrived.

As for spelling names differently - silly idea. Although I do agree that making sure people give the same names to people is a good idea. I looked at a Resume recently in which the persons name on the covering letter differed from his CV, which differed again from his references. It was very confusing.

Ah, sorry, I took your #1 to mean something else -- that it is legitimate for the government to ask residents to use one name consistently on official documentation. (Which makes sense.)

But thinking about it a bit longer, you're right, it's weird that this is a problem. The same problem would exist for people going by Mike or Tim or Ted or whatever in daily life.

(Off-topic, but I met a guy yesterday who introduced himself as Kenny, which later turned out to be short for Innokenti. That's an unexpected one.)

Cool name! What is his background?

I don't know why people need weird names anyway. If English names were good enough for Jesus Christ, they're good enough for me.

#6 -- Russian-Jewish family in Ukraine in the 80s who thought they would be stuck in Ukraine a while longer, so to be safe they gave their son a very Christian (Russian Orthodox, I guess) first name. Soon afterwards they emigrated to the US.

I looked at a Resume recently in which the persons name on the covering letter differed from his CV, which differed again from his references. It was very confusing.

Was it Asian name in that case?

I can imagine an Asian family registering their child as Lillian or Roger for school although on the birth certificate and at home he or she went by a Chinese, Japanese, or Korean name, so that teachers wouldn't have to deal with that name. And once it was the "official" school name it might find its way onto other documents.

Computers make more problems with this kind of thing. I have a colleague named, let us say, Jamal Abu Mazen. That has to break down as given name = Jamal, family (or father's) name = Abu Mazen. It took me a while to find him on the directory because he's in the directory as Mazen, Jamal A.

I don't know why people need weird names anyway. If English names were good enough for Jesus Christ, they're good enough for me.

I missed that line the first time around. Good one.

#8 -- That's the same kind of thing that happens with people who have a name along the lines of du Pont, von Trier, van Gogh.

Ha, thanks. I was afraid you were horrified.

Shilgia - yes, the person concerned in my example was Asian. Actually I realised that I made a post here last year about another CV i received due to the exact same issue. In both cases the applicant was Vietnamese but I have noticed it on a few different applications. The person had 3 names and in one example had four names but all were in a different order. I figured it was the same person and gave him the benefit of the doubt!

What do Indonesians and others with only one name do when they get to the West?

Saudi forms usually ask for first name, father's name, family name. So in the case of most Western expats (i.e. unless their middle name happened to be their father's name), there would be a mismatch. I don't use a middle name so it was less of an issue.

Family names were only imposed on Saudi Arabians within living memory and their attitude towards them is still a bit fluid.

You may write your name: given name father's name + (grandfather's + great grandfather's, as far back as you want) family name. (The family name will often be in the form Al X where Al = family of and X is a given name: Al Abdullah, Al Abdulaziz, etc.)

Usually in computerized documents, it's given name father's name family name, say Muhammad Abdullah Al Abdulaziz.

But that person may write his name:

Muhammad Abdullah

Muhammad Abdullah Muhammad (his grandfather's name)

Muhammad Abdullah Muhammad Wa'il (his great grandfather's name)

in either English or Arabic. And in English he may use all sorts of initials:

Muhammad A. Al AbdulAziz.

Muhammad Abdullah A.

Muhammad A. M. Wail.

etc.

I can easily imagine a Saudi's not using the name on his passport on a US driver's license application.

I laughed at #6 too, DianaH.

I laughed when I read "Kenny's" real name. He very likely thought that calling himself "Innocent" might get more strange looks and laughs than he wanted to deal with. In my own family, one Russian relative whose father called himself John had actually forgotten his patronymic. After having given his name as Pyotr Kyrilovich on official documents for years, he was surprised to come across his deceased father's passport only to find that his father's given name was Kyprian.

"Kenny" probably caused a few women in his native country to swoon when they heard his name; Innokenti Smoktunovsky was a famous actor in the Soviet Union. He played Hamlet in a filmed version of the play, and Uncle Vanya in a film that featured Sergei Bondarchuk (director of "War and Peace") as Dr. Astrov.

Here is Wikipedia's page on the actor Smoktunovsky.

Here is Wikipedia's page on the actor Smoktunovsky.

Sorry; my link above takes you only to an image from the film.

Edited by NorthAmerican to insert a correct link.

#13 -- Interesting post, both parts.

#12 -- Ayaan Hirsi Ali (Somali-Dutch politician now in the US) got into serious trouble with this. (On purpose or by mistake, opinions differ.) She was born the daughter of Hirsi, who was the son of Magan, the son of Ali, etc. When she came to the Netherlands from Somalia, she used Ali as her last name. Years later she was attacked for lying on the application, it was said that it was fraud and that she should have used Magan. (Ayaan Hirsi Magan, or maybe just Ayaan Magan.)

When she left the Netherlands in a huff, following this episode, this was part of her speech:

So now you may be wondering, what is my name? I am Ayaan, the daughter of Hirsi, who is the son of Magan, the son of Isse, the son of Guleid, who was the son of Ali, who was the son of Wai’ays, who was the son of Muhammad, of Ali, of Umar, of the line of Osman, the son of Mahamud. This is my clan. My ancestor is Darod, who came from Arabia to Somalia eight hundred years ago, and who founded the tribe of Darod. I am a Darod, a Macherten, an Osman Mahamud, and a Magan. Last week there was some confusion about my name. My name? You now know my name.

I once sat on a plane next to a kid from Malaysia who was on his way to an Americna university. I was trying to help him with his immigration forms. He had one of those single names, something like Mohammed ben Abdullah (I do remember the "ben"). "My name is Mohammed and my father is Abdullah. What do I do?" I tried to explain to him that he was going to have to pick a last name. It could be Abdullah or ben Abdullah, but he'd need one. He found it all pretty puzzling. It never occured to me to ask how he'd coped with his visa and university entrance stuff. I have no idea what he finally did.

In California, second generation immigrants (Nisei) were often given a Japanese and an "American" name. It was usually a Japanese first name and an American middle name. The Japanese name was used at home and the American name used in public. I had a boss who was Toshiro Roy, for example. His parents called him Toshiro, but everyone else called him Roy. He signed his name "T. Roy."

Glad to hear it, Vinny. Thanks.

Sometimes simple doesn't even help. I don't rember if it was a first name or last name, but several years back a Korean immigrant finally changed his name in exasperation since nobody ever believed it was his name. His name was O (one letter long). I think he added letters to it that didn't change the sound.

As for the one name dilemma, I've met a few Icelandic immigrants here in the US. They just adopt Hanssen or Hansdottir, etc. as their last name and give it to their children.

I also have a dilemma about names in my Indian family. I married a Singh and am called Mrs. Singh in the western world, but the real family name is Dahiya, the clan name. My husband's brother calls himself Dahiya but his brothers have chosen to be known as Singh. They are not Sikhs (every Sikh is Singh but not every Singh is Sikh), but come from the Punjab where everyone is Singh plus the family name.
My Indonesian friends' names have no relation to the other members of the family, all are completely different. The phone book is a nightmare.

Along the same lines: my grandfather and his brother emigrated from Germany to Palestine in the late 1930s. They had to choose a Hebrew spelling for their German family name. They both traveled separately and first started using their Hebrew name without consulting each other -- they started off with different transliterations. It stayed that way for (I believe) at least a decade -- possibly longer, but in any case long enough for it to involve wives and children using the same name. In the end someone convinced my grandfather's brother that my grandfather's transliteration was the correct one (it eliminates an ambiguity in pronunciation) and now both strands of family use the same spelling. On some old documents, however, there's still the other spelling.

(Sorry - I couldn't resist)

Hu's on First

By James Sherman
(We take you now to the Oval Office.)

George: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening?

Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.

George: Great. Lay it on me.

Condi: Hu is the new leader of China.

George: That's what I want to know.

Condi: That's what I'm telling you.

George: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China?

Condi: Yes.

George: I mean the fellow's name.

Condi: Hu.

George: The guy in China.

Condi: Hu.

George: The new leader of China.

Condi: Hu.

George: The Chinaman!

Condi: Hu is leading China.

George: Now whaddya' asking me for?

Condi: I'm telling you Hu is leading China.

George: Well, I'm asking you. Who is leading China?

Condi: That's the man's name.

George: That's who's name?

Condi: Yes.

George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China?

Condi: Yes, sir.

George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East.

Condi: That's correct.

George: Then who is in China?

Condi: Yes, sir.

George: Yassir is in China?

Condi: No, sir.

George: Then who is?

Condi: Yes, sir.

George: Yassir?

Condi: No, sir.

George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.

Condi: Kofi?

George: No, thanks.

Condi: You want Kofi?

George: No.

Condi: You don't want Kofi.

George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N.

Condi: Yes, sir.

George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.

Condi: Kofi?

George: Milk! Will you please make the call?

Condi: And call who?

George: Who is the guy at the U.N?

Condi: Hu is the guy in China.

George: Will you stay out of China?!

Condi: Yes, sir.

George: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N.

Condi: Kofi.

George: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.

(Condi picks up the phone.)

Condi: Rice, here.

George: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you get Chinese food in the Middle East?

Plagiarized from the Mighty Carson Art Players, 1982.

Author is credited.
I c&p'd the text for the benefit of people with slow connections.

And, for Shilgia and others, a Hebrew lesson for Passover and beyond. (text)

Chag sameach, or jag sameaj, to all.

VinnyD,

You don't go back far enough. The original play on words was created by Abbot and Costello Who's on First, 1940s.

The later guys just made it political.

Hopefully, I put the link in correctly. If not, check out Abbot and Costello "Who's on First?" on YouTube to see it.

I hope that this link to "Who's on First?" will work; I don't know if you realize it, viaggero, but Thorn Tree won't accept any link that has an apostrophe in it.

Here, Abbott and Costello.

psw, it was Mr. Sherman, not you, that I was accusing of plagiarism.

The Carson thing was obviously based on Who's On First, but that's well enough known to Americans that you can't call it plagiarism, more of a parody or hommage.

Sorry, but the link to the original article doesn't work for me, it says "Access forbidden!, Error 403" Is it because I'm outisde the US? However, regular articles accessed from the home page work just fine...

Anyway, I had the same problem apparently (apparently because I can't read the newspaper article), working for the administration of a German organization in Egypt.

Everyone had lots of names and spelled them any way they wanted (all reasonable transliterations but they never sticked with one version). If I asked them whether they were a Mohammad, a Mohammed, Muhammad, Muhammed, Mohammat, Muhammet, Mohamad, Mohamed, Muhamat or a Muhamet they always answered "any way you like".

It doesn't work like that if you are trying to find them in your data base (everyone also near always listed a different number of "last names"), so in the end I gave up and asked everyone for their cell phone number first (one guy, one cell phone number) and then asked to confirm that the person on the screen matched the person in front of me.

Whenever they filled out visa applications or got plane tickets the mess would start again - "just pick the spelling used on your passport and everything else is fine" didn't seem to be a concept that was easy...

Sorry, but the link to the original article doesn't work for me, it says "Access forbidden!, Error 403" Is it because I'm outisde the US?

It looks like the page has been removed. I'm in the US and get the same error. Here is more or less the same story from a different source.

Thanks, so there's an Athens big enough to have a newspaper outside Greece as well - you learn a new thing every day.

I didn't realize that "Hu's the new president of China" wasn't original but was based on "Who's on first". Cool. Here's another one I found, a parody on Fox.

I wouldn't be too surprised if there were daily papers in Athens, Ohio and Athens, Georgia.

Thanks, so there's an Athens big enough to have a newspaper outside Greece as well

There must be at least two. The Athens in this link is to Athens, Texas, which I hadn't heard of before (but that doesn't say much). Athens, Georgia must be much larger.

(Simulposted -- I didn't see #31 before posting #32.)

There's also an Athens, Ohio.

Athens, Alabama too.

The issue has hit mainstream, see this New York Times article

Very interesting, soylentyellow.

This guy from the Chinese government sounds like the Texas legislator:

Your name is so troublesome and problematic,” she recalled an official telling her. “Just change it.”

Miss Ma argues that the government’s technology should adapt, not her.

On the other hand, I can't imagine Zhao C, mentioned toward the end of the article, getting away with the equivalent anywhere in the world. (The equivalent in the Roman-alphabet world being to insist that your name be written with Chinese characters.)

I think that database was discussed here on SiT maybe when it was due to come out, or maybe when Zhao C. sued, probably in a thread also discussing the old French rule that only names of saints were possible first names to give to newborn babies.

I'm reviving this thread because I just ran into a partial answer to one question

What do Indonesians and others with only one name do when they get to the West?

Well, if you are filling out US immigration forms, you can do this:
>Enter your first (given) name as the first name appears on your passport under the First or Given Name field. Do not include the middle name in this field. First name is required to complete the application. If you do not have a first name, then enter the letters FNU which stands for First Name Unknown.

So, if you only have one name, you can treat it s a surname.

#39 -- That's weird. It would make more sense to make it possible to treat it as a given name (since it is) and leave last name/family name blank.

Thanks, nutrax.