German manuals

I got two old grammar manuals: a textbook published in 1962 and a grammar book published in 1981. How to check if the language is up-to-date? Any archaic or old-fashioned vocab or structures I should beware of? Basically, how to tell if they are still good to learn from nowadays?

Most important change is the 1996 spelling reform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996

Otherwise, no significant change since 1981, certainly not to grammar although slang changes quicky, as do customs in form of address. Probably the only thing you'll notice is the increasing use of Frau in place of Fräulein even when addressing young unmarried women.

Yes, the 1996 was the most drastic reform - but they keep reforming it. I believe the latest release was in 2006 with some additional changes.

I - as a non-native speaker - am completely lost. I was taught German before '96, lived in Germany in 02/03, often read German newspapers (who have their own policies, depending on the paper) and have serious troubles when I have to write something in proper grammatically correct German.

It would be interesting to know how Germans feel about this? Are you annoyed (if this is the right word) by foreigners who write part of the text in pre-96 German and part in post-96? Do the Germans do it as well (especially the older, ahem, ones)? Or do you stick to the German you were taught in school and ignore later changes?

I used a 1960s textbook in my study of German. While grammar doesn't appear to have changed much, a number of words have been pointed out to me as outdated. No one says fernsprecher for "telephone" anymore, for example.

#2 there are similar issues with ex-pat speakers of other languages subject to spelling reforms. Ex-pat Ukrainian communities write their language differently from those living in Ukraine. Chinese reforms to simplify and rationalise orthography were not implemented in Hong Kong or Taiwan, nor among the overseas Chinese diaspora.

This is an example of a common linguistic effect that the langauge closest to the epicentre innovates most, while peripheral speakers are more conservative. Links postulated between Lithuanian and Sanscrit are an example; the two lanaguages somme to have more in common than you'd expect as members of different brnaches within the indo-european family, but these reflect a shared conservatism rather than closer genetic links.

Was the 1996 reform really that big a change that it would matter to a beginning learner of German?

(I can see mojcek's point about being lost when having to write correct formal German, but for the basics -- does it matter?)

#5 depends how deep you want to go. It has NO effect on spoken German at all, so if you're brushing up for holiday conversation its not an issue. If you're reading German it has little effect, just treat ss and ß as interchangeable. It all depends on what OP seeks to achieve.

Thanks a lot for all the explanations. You have clarified more than I expected.

I've read the link supplied by #1 and it looks like even native speakers largely disagree with the reform so I guess I can be forgiven misspellings.

#3 - any more outdated vocab I should look out for?

#5 - I'd better clarify that I learnt German at school in early 90s so I'm not a beginner. I just want to know which books I can use for repetition. My German used to suffice for business correspondence. Now it's for extensive travel purposes.

The 1996 ff. reforms involve spelling and punctuation but not grammar.

As for punctuation, the pre-1996 rules are still perfectly correct but a few alternatives are allowed now which counted as mistakes before. Result: people believe punctuation is totally free now and do as they like, which leads to a total mess.

I would not worry about those spelling things too much either (unless you plan to write texts for publication). Stick with what you learned. Better correct 'old' spelling than a mess. Everyone understands the 'old' spelling. Result of the reforms: see what I said about punctuation.

The use of "Fräulein" has become an absolute no-no in Germany. Better forget it altogether. Unmarried old ladies who are proud of their spinster status and insist on being addressed as Fräulein xy are an almost extinct species. Young women will be offended. And never call a waitress "Fräulein!" (in Switzerland this is still common but not in Germany.)

That's good to know about Fräulein, Blandine. Now I'm wondering if I offended anyone the last time I was in Germany.

The genitive case in German is slowly being replaced by the dative case, accompanied by the usual lamentations from grammar purists. So some of the 1962 examples might be considered old-fashioned today. But they would still be understood.

Tonyk, can you exlain what you mean by 'the genitive is slowly being replaced by the dative' ?
Maybe after the few prepositions that traditionally took the genitive, such as wegen, eg
- wegen mir intead of wegen meiner
- wegen dem Mann instead of wegen des Mannes
but in its primary usage as the possessive case, I don't see the genitive giving any ground at all.

If you're looking for archaic usages, I would suggest the added -e in masculine/neuter dative singulars, such as 'dem Lande' instead of 'dem Land' - it used to be taught as standard, but now has a rather archaic or literary flavour.

Tonyk, can you exlain what you mean by 'the genitive is slowly being replaced by the dative' ?

See the 'Genitive' paragraph in this Wikipedia article.

Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod. Good title.

But I'm going to quibble with this (from TonyK's wikipedia article):

In at least one context, the use of a dative construction to indicate possession is standard. Usually with respect to a person's body, mind, or personality, one can say, for example, "Sie gab ihm die Hand", which translates literally to "She gave him the hand". In English, this would always be rendered as "She gave him her hand.

ihm there doesn't indicate possession of the hand: it's not his hand it's hers. The definite article instead of a possessive in that sort of sentence is standard in French and Italian too. For example: La ci darem la mano. (Recitative until 2:40.)

You're quite right Vinny -- the writer's example is wrong. But there is a relevant construction in German, which the writer presumably intended: 'Sie biss ihm die Hand', 'She bit his hand'.

#9, when was that?

#15 -- Not quite two years ago.

Interestingly, this Wiki article suggests English does not have a proper genitive case+ ...but rather, +a possessive ending, -’s

And here , it's suggested that in English, the accusative and dative pronouns merged into a single objective pronoun used in both roles...+ ....and that +the dative case is no longer a part of modern English usage.

Is, in fact, the German language heading in this direction, or are the grammar "experts" (to use a neutral term) in Germany sufficiently empowered to stop this?

#16, wow I wonder if felt you were condescending....

#17, I doubt the language purists wuold let that happen.

Now I've got a question about dative dem Lande - is the -e ending having just a literary use more formal or purely poetic? Can it be used in a business/economic text or would it be archaic?

The -e- ending is a bit old-fashioned. In a business text I would not use it. Duden allows both forms, so "dem Land" is just fine.

OP, so are you using those manuals?