ESTA- Brain melt.

My understanding of ESTA - visa waiver programme, lasts for two years but you must not stay for longer than 90 days in America at one time.

Our plans are to fly to New Orleans in March 2015 for a couple of days, spend a week in Austin and then fly to Peru. Spend three months in South/Central America (Mexico/Cuba and wherever else takes our fancy.) We'll then fly to Vancouver where I hope to work (if successful with an IEC one year work visa).

There is a chance we will be entering Canada as tourists which means we can stay for six months only. Over the next year we would like to see cities in America , we have no intentions just now to stay for months on end in America, but this is confusing me:

"total trip, including both periods of time spent in the USA and Canada cannot exceed 90 days or you will require a visa"

My understanding of this is that we would not be able to visit American cities over the next year. What's the point in having a 'two year waiver' if this is the case?

Thanks
Gemma

Take a look at the Visa Waiver/ESTA sticky post at the top of this branch. It covers all this in better detail.

ESTA and the Visa WaiverProgram are two different things. Many people are confused by it.

ESTA is a pre-approval that determines that you appear to be eligible to enter under the Visa Waiver Program and that you are not on some list of undesirable people. You must have ESTA pre-approval if you plan to enter under the Visa Waiver Program and will be entering the US by air. Your airline will not let you board without it. ESTA pre-approval is good for two years or whenever your passport expires, whichever comes first. ESTA pre-approval does not guarantee admission to the US.

You actually enter the US under the Visa Waiver Program. This allows certain people to enter the US without the need for a full visa. You may stay in the US for no longer than 90 days. Time spent in Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean, after you first enter the US, counts toward the 90 days.

If you plan to live in Canada and to make periodic visits to the US, then a full B2 tourist visa may be more appropriate for you.

See Visa Waiver Program from the US Embassy in London, for more details.

Thanks for your reply.

I can't see the sticky post you mentioned above?

A visa would involved a trip to London which we would like to avoid. We don't want to go for long periods of time so don't really feel a visa is for us from reading up on it.

Since we are going to USA and then Peru does this 'offset' the 90 days which means it'll start again? If we go to Mexico next does it start again or does it mean if went to America and then Mexico all of those days would add up? If we just bus to Seattle/Portland from Canada in the next few months to visit family will it leave the 90 days intact until we fly into America again say in January when our Canadian six months might be up (if we don't get work visas)?

We have no intentions to stay in America just city breaks.

The sticky.

We don't want to go for long periods of time so don't really feel a visa is for us from reading up on it.

Be careful with this.
Your first entry under the VWP ends when you head to Peru. However when you enter later from Canada, a new 90 period will begin. If the border guard you get decides to follow the rules, you could end up denied entry, which makes any future visit require a via.
If you don't want to go to London, you can apply in Canada.

What does 'follow the rules' entail if it's multi entry?

Thanks for link to sticky. The tourist visa really doesn't seem common but it's good to know we can get it in Canada also. London is a large trip for us.

What does 'follow the rules' entail if it's multi entry?

The ESTA pre-approval is multi-entry, NOT the Visa Waiver, which is where you are getting confused. To follow your original plan of popping over the border every so often while living in Canada you really need the tourist visa no matter how inconvenient that is.

Since we are going to USA and then Peru does this 'offset' the 90 days which means it'll start again?

If you mean by "offset" that you have met the USA 90-day limit re-set rules, then yes, you can re-enter with a new 90-day limit.

If we go to Mexico next does it start again or does it mean if went to America and then Mexico all of those days would add up?

Your 90-day counter does not re-set with just a visit to Mexico, so 30 days US and 40 days Mexico means you only have 20 days legally remaining on your return to the US from Mexico.

If we just bus to Seattle/Portland from Canada in the next few months to visit family will it leave the 90 days intact until we fly into America again say in January when our Canadian six months might be up (if we don't get work visas)?

It will leave the 90-day limit intact (meaning it doesn't re-set), since a return to Canada does not re-set the clock. I know it sounds like a pain, however the rules are that travelling to Canada after entering the US does not count towards re-setting the 90-day limit, if you then choose to re-enter the US under the VWP*.

Either you do all your visiting in Seattle/Portland within the first 90 days of your time in Vancouver (and fly home without entering the US at all), or you apply for a visa that will allow multiple visits to the US over a number of years.

* There has been anecdotal comment on here that a "substantial" period in Canada (say 30 days +/-) is sufficient for the immigration authorities to understand your situation, and not deny your re-entry to the US, since they are convinced that you haven't simply done a visa run, but are actually based more in Canada.

So every time I go to America or Mexico it takes time off the 90 days?
We will have 11 days in NOLA/Austin; go to Peru (no days effecting ESTA/VWP up until May but does not reset 90 days?) Mexico May/June add on 35 days estimate (46); Cuba (did she just say Cuba and is going anywhere near America, yes she did, 21 days then up to Canada (no transit in USA). 67 days used. My three months would be up so we couldn't enter America again?

This isn't what I've read on other forums. I've been advised that you can fill out i94w at the border if you travel by bus from Canada and use internal flights within America without an ESTA/VWP obviously we will have one but the length of time we are away is the issue.

This is all 'just in case' I plan to get IEC, everyone on that thread says they've been border hopping to go shopping etc and not had issues.

So every time I go to America or Mexico it takes time off the 90 days?

You need to be fairly precise with your language here.

Your 90 days start from the first time you enter the US - and then if you visit Canada or Mexico, the days spent in those countries are also counted (ie, taken "off the 90 days" you're allowed.)

As I said previously, if you're in Canada having been in the US on a VWP entry in the recent past then time spent in Canada or Mexico is added to the the total, in working out your required exit from the US, and any attempt at re-entry into the US.

However this is all about re-entry into the US - if you had 88 days in the US under the VWP and then went to Canada or Mexico for as long as you like, and then flew to - say - Switzerland without touching the US in transit, then you would meet the requirements of the VWP. But that sort of scenario is not your situation.

The 90 days VWP limit in the US includes time in Canada, Mexico or Cuba between the first entry to the US and the last departure from the US, it does NOT include time in Canada, Mexico or Cuba before the first entry to the US or after the last departure from the US. Going anywhere south of Mexico, such as Peru, for a reasonable period resets the 90 day clock so that your next 90 day VWP entry to the US starts with a clean sheet, forget about the initial 11 days in the US before Peru, it is not relevant. As your flight to Vancouver does not stop in the US it does not start the 90 day clock. If you are in Canada for a year on an IEC WHV or just 6 months as a Visitor, going strictly by the book you must fit all your US visits within one 90 day period, although there is considerable evidence that people often do get a second 90 day VWP entry to the US if they have spent several months in Canada, the chances of a third 90 day VWP entry during your period in Canada are probably very low.

Thank you Marka55, a travel agent told us similar and this was my interpretation of the VWP. It would not be an issue for us to save the USA trips until January when potentially we may have to leave Canada anyway if tourists.

I have spoke with a very rude receptionist at the American Embassy in London and have emailed them regarding a tourist visa. I await response.

I am also conversing with customs in America through an email thread but they are very reluctant to advise me in layman's terms and keep throwing the same jargon I can see on websites. For example -

Read our first part of response. You are OK to visit U.S. under the Visa Waiver Program if you travel to U.S. from Peru. However, our law says that you must travel **with a valid round-trip ticket and your trip cannot terminate in a third country. You will encounter problem if you visited U.S. first for 80 days (for example) then went to Canada, Mexico, or adjacent islands for another 20 days because your total time will be over 90 days limit. However, Peru is not considered one of the adjacent islands so you are good to go:****

This may seem like a silly question, but how does the ESTA stop?! Is it when we fly out of America to a non bordering country? What happens if we get jobs legally in Canada / are allowed to go back as tourists and want to fly to America a couple of times to city break in a 90 day period, does it keep running over the 90 days because we are going back to Canada?

The ESTA does not stop, an ESTA only indicates that you are not the sort of person who would blow up the aircraft before it lands, you do not even need an ESTA for land entry to the US. The VWP entry to the US is different if you do it by air or land and if you are in Vancouver you may well find that crossing the border by land and then taking a US domestic flight from Seattle is a lot cheaper than an international flight from Vancouver, also VWP entries by land do not require the roundtrip or onward ticket out of North America that entries by air do. If you cross by land you have to pay US$6 and get a green I-94W form stapled in your passport along with the 90 day VWP entry stamp, if you fly, you may be surprised that you go through US entry procedures at the Canadian airport, not the US destination and you just get the 90 day VWP entry stamp. When you reenter the US within the 90 days, whether by land or air just point out to them the initial VWP entry stamp, but expect much the same interrogation as the first time. If your initial US entry was by land, then when you are leaving the US for the last time within the 90 days surrender the green I-94W form stapled in your passport, either to a Canadian border official if leaving by land or to the airline right at the boarding gate. If you are coming and going by land then do not surrender the green I-94W form stapled in your passport every time unless you want to pay US$6 every time, it is good for the whole 90 days so keep it until the final trip. Do not expect much useful information from the US government. A Canadian WHV allows you to come and go during the year as you please.

This may seem like a silly question, but how does the ESTA stop?!

ESTA approval does not stop just because you leave the country. It stops when one of these things happen:

1. The two-year approval period ends or your passport expires, whichever comes first Or
2. The US revokes it. This could happen because you do something that means you can no longer use the Visa Waiver Program (such as overstay) or because the US discovers you have taken up a life of crime or become a terrorist.

Your question is really about admission under the Visa Waiver Program, not about ESTA.

When you show up at a US immigration desk, you apply for admission to the US. Admission is always at the discretion of the immigration official. Having ESTA pre-approval or even a full visa does not guarantee admission. People applying for admission under the VWP are rarely denied entry, but it happens. The few reports I've seen were people who didn't realize that working in exchange for room and board requires a work visa, and someone who arrived at a land border & was denied entry because she had no access to funds.

Anyway, you arrive and apply for admission under the VWP. All goes well and the official either grants you a 90-day stay or a stay until your passport expires, whichever comes first.

The US has no exit controls. If you fly out of the US to another country, the airline notifies US immigration that you have left. (Same thing with a ticket on a commercial boat). If you leave by land or by a private yacht or some such, there is no such notice. What happens is that, once the 90 days is up, a computer puts you on a list as having overstayed the 90-days you were allowed. There is a way to prove to the US that you did indeed leave north America within 90 days (for example, you took a bus to Toronto and then flew to the UK), but it is a pain.

If you try to come back to the US, the official is going to see that overstay on the computer and deny you entry. It sometimes happens that someone who has been in Canada or Mexico for many months after leaving the US, is allowed to re-enter under the WVP, but you can't count on it.

If you plan to stay in Canada to work and visit the US every so often, then you are going to need a full B2 visa. Here is how the US Embassy in Canberra words it (it applies to everyone, not just Australians)

Travelling to Canada for the Canadian Working Holiday Program (WHP)
Applicants travelling to Canada for the Canadian WHP may wish to apply for a tourist visa prior to travel, rather than use the VWP. Most flights to Canada [from Australia] transit the United States, and if you are planning to spend longer than 90 days in Canada the VWP may not be appropriate for such a transit.
Additionally, WHP participants may wish to visit the United States from time to time while living in Canada. This again may require a tourist visa, rather than the VWP. Most short terms visitors to the United States enter on the B1/B2 Business/Tourism visa.

#12 The big difference to the advice for Australians is that most flights between Canada and the UK do NOT transit the US, so the case for going to all the time and expense of a B2 visa is much less clear cut. Also the problems of the US not knowing that you have left are only if you arrive by air and leave by land, if you arrive by air and leave by air or arrive by land and leave by land (and surrender your I-94W) there is no problem.

Thanks to both of you for your advice. We have decided to go for the ESTA/VWP as the priority has always been to go to SXSW in Austin then spend the majority of our time in Canada, anything else in The States is a bonus really. If we go down the B2 route we could be declined and then declined from VWP (I have read some peoples' experiences). It could mean we don't go to America again after Austin so be it. There's always Europe!