Dangerous World

We are very experience traveller but I'm getting the feeling that the world is or will be getting too dangerous. Last year we were in India/Nepal for 4 months(first time was in '72), been to China and Vietnam 3 times each, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, etc. I am referrilng to travel in Asia and not Canada or Europe. Perhaps I am getting too old but I get the feeling that things are changing for the worse economically/socially and there is/will be great dangerous instability. The USA is going down and the rest of the world will probably be worse off. We spent the winter in Mexico (we lived there for 10 years previously) and it was OK but the news was horrendous. Is everything about the same or are things taking a bad turn as they appear? US government has given Americans a very bad image. Any informed opinions. Thanks

There have always been wars and dangerous conflicts somewhere in the world, India, Vietnam, Cambodia and Europe.
But, what seems to have become worse is safety, or the lack of it, as it is now in most parts of urban North America and Europe. There is no longer sense of community as it used to be, there is more fear and phobias among people. Children don't go out and play any longer on their own.
People are affraid of paedofiles, terrorists (at home and in the world), HIV and diabetes, genetically modified food and obesity, raising fuel prices and global warming,
Are those real dangers or is it only a media stuff?

Or is it us? Common knowledge would tell us that older persons are more fearful of new, strange experiences and youth is more fearless, more adventuresome. I (we) have been in some unusual, possibly dangerous situations but the world seems worse now and getting worse. I wouldn't spend much time in a Muslim country now although we did spend a week in Istanbul last year. Was in Afganistan in '72 and it was a dangerous place but not like now. On the same trip we went through Iran but now I'm not so sure. There are more Muslim's in India than there are in Pakistan. Used to spend a lot of time in Morocco - - no more. This seems to be good sense to me but I'm not so sure. I am also afraid that world wide impoverishment might lead to agressive action on the part of desperate people. We are poor by western standards but not third world standards. Seemingly safe places seem too boring for us.

danger at home or at travel has much to do with the attitude oneself has about the surrounding.
Take the same precausion as at home and you might be safe abroad
of course there are hotspots on this planet, which at least i would not travel to
But i think much of the fears came as the communication gets better, now you read and hear abuot more crimes then in the old days without internet and cell phone.
While travelling try to be an open minded visitor, especially look for yourself and do not get caught up in politics, and prejudice
injoy the people, the culture and the food and behave as a guest who likes to be where he is

Yes I agree, things just dont seem to be the same nowdays, however I do agree with #3, these things probably still happened when we were young, but we didnt hear about them due to lack of media in those days. Still wont stop us from travelling, but will definatley be more careful now.

I don't think so at all and being older and having less time to spend I don't intend spending it in fear. Being an old man with a beard I get on well with Muslems and have a deep respect for Islam. I was treated well at 18 on my first long journey and have never forgotten that.

People are affraid of paedofiles, terrorists (at home and in the world), HIV and diabetes, genetically modified food and obesity, raising fuel prices and global warming,

No. My concern when picking up a todler from the middle of a busy road was being identified as such. Should have let him be squashed and saved myself the bother. Terrorists - I live in London and we had the IRA before and various other people over the years who did not wish us well. HIV - take precautions - even if you get it - it is now a mangeable condition. Diabetes and obesity - lose some weigh do some exercise.

People today confuse threat with risk. I have no reservations about travelling almost anywhere in the world that's not a war zone.

While the US government may not have a good reputation overseas I don't believe that translates to Americans in general. As always, discussing politics when in a foreign country is a bad idea (ours or theirs).

Perhaps an open mind and being a nice person will minimize overseas trouble; nevertheless I have no illusions that in many quarters I would be seen as an old, rich American white guy. I am also concerned about worldwide economic depression and the resultant desperation by the poor some of whom may be pushed over the edge. Been hearing about food shortages, high inflation and high gasoline prices which could lead to social unrest. Perhaps I am being alarmist - - that is my question. Will probably leave in a few months for SE Asia and India but I am watching the internet news. I remember the phrase "ugly American" but the American government and public has elevated this problem to another much higher level. My older brother many, many years ago advised me on my first trip to Europe in '69 to put an American flag on my backpack so we could get rides easier and meet the friendly locals - - what a joke today. US and Europe are too expensive and uninteresting. We shall see what happens.

Travel has always come with certain risks, but I'm not at all sure it has become more dangerous.

What has happened, though, is that incidents involving tourists (especially English-speaking tourists now often appear to be crime waves of tsunami proportion, largely because of the Internet and the way it is used by both the public and news gatherers.

Hundreds of thousands of Canadians vacation every year in Mexico, for instance, but it would be easy to conclude that your chances of being murdered there are very high, because of a few very highly publicized and repeatedly referenced incidents in the past couple of years.

Every time some drunk Canadian kid falls off a balcony at a Mexican resort and dies, the immediate assumption these days is that he was murdered and there was a coverup by Mexican authorities.

It doesn't help that the Mexican law enforcement system can be less than transparent to an outsider, and that comments by Mexican law enforcement officials can seem defensive or even ludicrous to non-Mexicans.

But considering how many tourists treat all-inclusive package holidays as opportunities to get shitfaced night and day, I'm actually surprised that there are so few deaths, accidental or otherwise, abroad.

Travelled independently through SEA last winter for 3 months and had no concerns. The week after coming home I drove down to Seattle and found myself in a situation in a suburban mall that had all my danger antennae on alert.

I find the USA to be a very dangerous place - that great economic divide is turning into a chasm and young people are losing hope. That makes them desperate for what you have. Nowhere is that MORE apparent than in the big cities of U.S.

As to what happened on that Greyhound bus in Manitoba? Well, a Greyhound bus in Manitoba is one of the places in the world I would have felt completely safe. Go figure.

I agree with the feelings and perspective OP. It makes sense that with difficult times, crime and tensions will increase in most poor countries and the poor in any country. Being an avid watcher of LINK TV (independent viewer supported channel), there are many reports and documentaries on the growing problems and tensions in many countries. India is one that comes to mind, More than ever it is important to do close research on a chosen travel destination and to be cautious.

Baja California is a case in point. Gangs have taken over there killing off many of the local police and posing as the police to pull over vehicles/tourists for robbery. Armed holdups in campgrounds in the middle of the day. The feds had to be called in. I met a gringo on my last trip to Guatemala who has lived on Baja for 10 years and says it's completely crazy there now.

Fresco has it right. It is astonishing to me how many Canadians go to Mexico and stay drunk and/or drugged for their entire stay and yet, when some of them are injured or killed, it is trumpted in the media as Mexico's fault. When Julius Nyerere was Pres of Tanzania, he tried to limit tourism because his poorest people would constantly see tourists well-dressed with expensive cameras etc., and feel so much poorer - and that also would lead to a certain amount of crime. That is inevitable, and with a worldwide financial meltdown looming (Thanks in part to Wall St. -as always - , and Republicans -as usual -electing their darling Geo. Bush), we are in for much more poverty and crime everywhere

I think this is a good point: the USA is a very dangerous place. I wouldn't go out on the street at night in any US city. I don't know about Europe but I suspect it is similar. Life is dangerous, I suppose. I prefer to minimize the danger but I'm not ready for the rocking chair or TV.

USA is a very dangerous place. I wouldn't go out on the street at night in any US city. I don't know about Europe but I suspect it is similar.

It's not, and very far from it.
I spend most of my time in Stockholm, Sweden and in Gdansk, Poland. I go out any time, day or night, without even thinking about any danger.

Do you think this is true of France, Russia, Germany, Italy, UK, Spain - - at least in the big cities?

Yes, I'm sure it is. I haven't been to Russia for ten years, so I don't know what the situation is like in Moscow or St Petersburg today. But, I've been recently to France (Marseille), Italy (south), UK (around London and in Cornwal), and Spain (Barcelona). I walked at night in all of those places.
But, if you live in the USA (I don't know where), I can understand your point. My last trip was to Luisiana, four years ago. I was sitting in a bar, talking to a few locals. When I said I was going to take a walk to my motel, just 300 m away, they thought I was crazy. The guy next to me gave me a lift in his truck. I didn't know what was safer, as I saw him having at least six bottles of bud.

The USA is probably the most dangerous country in the world - - guns, aggressive people, social unrest, crime. What about Bangkok, Hanoi, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Phnom Penh? Been to all them recently and didn't have any problems but that proves nothing. Moscow looked menacing but we spent 2 weeks there waiting for visa. China seems pretty pacific unless one talks politics.

I don't know what to say about the USA. You're probably right.
After having posted my #15 I went for a bicycle ride, one hour, and just returned now (it's half past midnight). I thought about it and came to these conclusions.
I've been to the USA about ten times, through a period of 20 years. It's a great country. I've also visted more than 60 other countries.
I tried to count the situations during my travels and in about 30 years, when I felt unsafe, intimidated or very uncomfortable. They were very few, even though I always travelled individually, in big cities and off the beaten path. I could count four: NYC (twice), Toledo Ohio, Houma Louisiana. All the four in the same country.

I forgot to mention other aspects of "American culture" that leads me to make the statement about US being most dangerous country: high levels of mental disorder, high level of drug/alcohol abuse, class antagonism, gang warfare, cultural debasement, economic hardship, political insanity, social disenfranchment and alienation. You might want to follow a similar thread ("Dangerous World") over on "experimental travel" - - starting to turn a little ugly over there which I think reinforces my last point.

{quote:title=kosoral wrote:}Baja California is a case in point. Gangs have taken over there killing off many of the local police and posing as the police to pull over vehicles/tourists for robbery. Armed holdups in campgrounds in the middle of the day. The feds had to be called in. I met a gringo on my last trip to Guatemala who has lived on Baja for 10 years and says it's completely crazy there now. {quote}

I get so annoyed by incendiary statements like this. We traveled through Baja and then mainland Mexico, camping all the way Feb to May 2007 - that is just a little over a year ago. Have conditions changed that much in that time? We were NEVER bothered or robbed or asked for a bribe - although the police/military have checkpoints every couple hundred km. They are looking for guns and drugs, were always friendly and hospitable to us.

We stayed in campgrounds or on the beach - no holdups in 4 months and being there later in the season we were often the ONLY ones in the campground. No problems. I don't say things don't happen occasionally but they do everywhere.

I, kosoral, did not write that. Someone called "Chapatigirl" did not me. Check first page of posts.

Fieldgate said: My last trip was to Luisiana, four years ago. I was sitting in a bar, talking to a few locals. When I said I was going to take a walk to my motel, just 300 m away, they thought I was crazy. The guy next to me gave me a lift in his truck. I didn't know what was safer, as I saw him having at least six bottles of bud.

Yeah, Louisiana is quite dangerous. Keeping in mind that New Orleans probably has the highest murder/violent crime rate of any area that a tourist would visit, I don't think you should be afraid when visiting say, New York, which has a relatively low crime rate. And even in New Orleans, just use common sense and don't use drugs or hang out with people who use drugs and your chance of being hurt will go way down. My worst experience was a drive-by shooting at my house, caused by my friend who filed a complaint against drug dealers who then decided to take him out and followed him to my house because he realized he was being followed and was afraid to go home because he had a small child. A tourist would never be involved in anything like that. I'm sorry you had a bad experience in Houma, I wouldn't necessarily expect that.

I personally feel safer in Brazil and many big american cities now than 20 or 15 years ago. Come on, the US in general is safe.

Africa… esp. the tourist-destination Kenia and South Africa are going down the drain… even Namibia which suppossed to be safe has now crime problems in towns. And here in Europe friends got robbed at gun-point in Andalucia/Spain. I've also heard that Columbia is now safer than 5 years ago. I guess it depends.

Sorry you are so annoyed Living..... but things have deteriorated much in the last 8 months or
so on Baja (a google on 'Danger Baja' brings up much, 'Baja War Zone' rather sums it up)

Having family in Southern Calif who hear far more of the goings on on Baja than I up here in Oregon,
A brother who is a surfer and says the dangers are well known in the surfing community
And the real credible source to me, the words from a man who lives there...... it's gone bad.

i'd been away from the states & heard all about the problems in baja....so when i returned i checked it out

...observation is that there is no problem for gringos who are not looking for problems...drugs, hookers & back alleys....safer than ever in tijuana with a million federal cops on the beat with a ready smile

...further down the peninsula to punta la bufadora...no problems...fewer gringo turists

...the only problem i encountered that was worse was the wait at the border getting back to the states...que pena

with tourism way down, there is real financial incentive for the feds to get control of the problem.
Hopefully that is happening.

.

The slums of big cities in the U.S., e.g., NY or LA and those of Phnom Penh and Bangkok aren't even in the same universe as far as danger and degradation are concerned. Going on about how the U.S. is "going down" and the pestilence, hopelessness, political insanity, degradation, violence, blah, blah, blah - take it easy.

My advice is to lay off the "progressive" blogs, decrease news intake in general, and (if you haven't already) start volunteering 4 or more hours/week at a church, clinic, animal shelter, day care center, immigrant rights center (you can help the millions of people risking everything to get to this cesspool), school, Sierra Club - the list is endless. You need to get refocused.

Budget travel basics for SE Asia | Backpacking Maroon Bells 7.08 | Maroon Bells & Rawah Wilderness photos | home

Thank you for your advice. Perhaps you would care to address any and all these assertions - - I would be glad to explain them to you if you do not understand:

1)aggressive people
2)social unrest
3)crime
4)guns
5)high rate of mental disorder
6)high levels of drug/alcohol abuse
7)class antagonism
8)gang warfare
9)criminal government (legislative branch)
10)corrupt courts
11)psychopathic administration (executive branch)
12)racial antagonism
13)corruption
14)media deception
15)threat to citizens and foreign citizens
16)spying
17)torture
18)denial of civil and constitutional rights
19)social/cultural debasement

You're welcome. I hope it helps.

What a list! One could almost say it's a little hysterical. I'm not interested in debating you. I just wanted to say that I think you need to calm down - it's not as bad as you think. I think if you would get involved in doing something about one or several of those things that are so troubling to you that things would begin to look up. I'm not talking about a drum circle at a "peace center" or whatever, but helping out in an AIDS hospice or tutoring juvenile offenders or a Sierra Club service outing (like restoring a trail in the Sierras) or something actually concretely constructive. You may be contributing, I don't know, but if you are and on a regular basis, it seems weird that you would have so much angst.

Uncle John's Band

I have no angst about this. Perhaps you do. It is there. I can run away from it - - I usually do but it is still there. "Love It or Leave It!" is what we used to say. The world is a sad dangerous place and the USA is one of the worst. Maybe it is not the absolute worst. I think you may be more upset because you want things to be better, you think they are better but there it is. Of course it is more-or-less the same everywhere.

A woman in a Vancouver suburb just suffered a completely unprovoked attack by a black bear while gardening in her back yard. She was saved from certain death by neighbours who stoned the vicious animal and beat it with brooms.
Life in Canada is becoming precarious because governments are soft on dangerous four-footed predators, pass laws protecting them and allocate enormous amounts of money so they can multiply and increase their deadly attacks.

Hello. This is my first incursion into "older travellers" and this debate is very interesting. To fresco I would say that I live in the cariboo (central BC) and bear country. We work and play in the Bowron Lakes area and bears are everywhere. It is true there is an overpopulation problem and the government should be increasing the allowable times for hunting but far fewer people are injured or killed by bears than by deer (Bambi is a killer). Here we consider deer and moose to be far more dangerous than bears and we need to cull them as well. I most certainly want to preserve all wild life (wild salmon, whales, bear, deer , moose and all the way down the line) but things are definitely out of whack.

In terms of the world at large I believe things are worsening and I believe it is due to the population growth. Years ago I read of a famous experiment in which a number of mice were provided with food and water and allowed to otherwise do as they pleased. For a time they breeded, their numbers grew and there were basically no problems but as the population grew further there began to be problems, more fighting, birthing problems, more mess, and so on. I may have the details wrong but you get the idea. So more people, more problems.

If we worry about all the problems we face in the world and they are all very real then it is hard to remain positive and avoid becoming pessimistic. I feel it is important to remain positive and optimistic about the future. I have to hope that we can all fix the problem and make the world a better place.

Wenceslasz, I remember reading about the same experiment about 30 years ago. The one I read about was a cage over somebody's bathtub! (Maybe not the same experiment, but the same idea.) When the cage became overpopulated the mice had a WAR with many killed; afterwards life went on peacefully as before.

I believe that overpopulation is the single biggest factor in global warming, and that until we get this under control, we really can't 'conserve' our way out of this problem. Jared Diamond says that the earth can only sustain about 3 billion people and we are on our way to 9 billion. However, a physician friend of mine says that this will probably be taken care of with a virus (e.g. ebola, etc) that will sweep across the globe and voila! we will be down to 2 billion people! Yuk! Wouldn't birth control have been better?

Wouldn't birth control have been better?

Birth control reducing the present world population down to 3 mln (Am. billion) people?

On the other hand, the amount of food that is being produced today is enough to feed the whole present population plus another 50%. One, smaller part is living with huge overconsuption, and another one, that is much bigger, with malnutrition and starvation.

The experiment I read about was described in a display at the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto. It would have been 20 years ago (1989). It was very disconcerting to read about it then and now is even worse.

I do believe we are due for some kind of viral epidemic like th influenza of the 1920's. I don't think there will be a 75% death rate. The human body is pretty resistant/adaptable but it could be deadly none the less.

Too depressing to contemplate.

Well, at the end of the day, maybe what you fear says more about your background than anything else. I do not fear black bears, rampaging moose, killer bees, alligators, bird flu, West Nile disease, etc. I fear someone picking up a gun and firing into my house. Probably that's because someone actually picked up a gun and fired 5 bullets at my house. All of the black bears, meeses, bees, and alligators I've met have been fairly easy-going. It's a coin toss whether a mosquito kills you and when a friend of mine was killed by mosquito borne disease in his teens, right here in Louisiana, I could have succumbed to hysterics and never gone outdoors again, or I could make the decision to hope for the best and enjoy life while I'm here. My choice was to enjoy life while I'm here.

Not to dampen some good rantings but here is your per capita m ratio top 30

Nervous Nellies beware

#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people

#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people

#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people

#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people

#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people

#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people

#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people

#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people

#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people

#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people

#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people

#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people

#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people

#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people

#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people

#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people

#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people

#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people

#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people

#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people

#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people

#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people

#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people

#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people

#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people

#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people

#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people

#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people

peachfront #35 Thank you for your post. Seems to me that the choice is either your attitude or to hide under the bedclothes. Specifically I don't fear bears but would need to know a little more about what to do when I met one. Knowledge and common sense go a long way.

Too true Peachfront. I'd much rather face a bear than indiscriminent shooters. Bears except for the occasional killer are more likely to run. Moose are less predictable and more dangerous but still less than shooters and mosquitoes. It is always vital to remain optimistic (without wearing rose coloured glasses) in the face of so many problems in the world.

Uruguay has a slightly higher murder rate than the US?
So that's why there's so few people in that country!