Boisclair out, Duceppe (about to be) in

Good news for the PQ... bad news for federalists...

Discuss.

The writing was on the wall some time ago ...

Duceppe is charming and slimy and that is what we should be afraid of ...

I am moving to thoughpolice's place ...

I love Duceppe.

You are welcome Beachie but my wife may tire of constant threesomes, she isn't as tolerant as she once was.

I hadn't heard Boisclair was out.

I wonder how this will affect travel to the troubled region of Quebec. Has the government issued any travel warnings? I am supposed to visit in July. Will I be safe?

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<hr>You are welcome Beachie but my wife may tire of constant threesomes, she isn't as tolerant as she once was.<hr></blockquote> hehehe

Don't you have guest house I can live in?

Time will tell; I suppose ...

I figure that people are just sick of this separation talk; in the end we all lose because of it ...

Yeah - but this is good for the Federalists at the national level isn't it?
Who's the Bloc gonna replace Duceppe with now?

The only reason Duceppe did so well in the last election was the sponsorship scandal anyways. Prior to that he'd presided over the weakest election result for the Bloc ever....

Nah, the Bloc is nothing but a farm team for the PQ anyway, Bloc leaders don't ever accomplish anything at the federal level, because if they did, it would "hurt" the "sovereignty cause" (i.e. if life in Canada is better, they lose their argument on why Quebec should separate). Whoever the Bloc puts in as leader will spend some time learning the ropes and then be parachuted in as the next PQ leader in 5 years or so. That's just how it goes, cause the PQ is seemingly incapable of developing viable leadership candidates internally.

Duceppes departure can't hurt the seat totals of the other federal parties in Quebec though.

Is it true that Boisclair was the first Parti leader to never be Premier of Quebec?

The OP's analysis is nonense. The PQ and separatism generally are on the wane. The PQ had its worst showing in over 30 years and is reduced to a third party. Duceppe would, at this point, be picking up the remants on a party that refuses to budge on the Independence option, an option that Quebecers are rejecting. So long as federalists don't do anything particularly stupid like talking about the Constution, then the separatists will continue their decline into marginal status.

#9, yes, it's on the decline now, but it goes in cycles. And there's nobody left strongly defending federalism either. In 1995, we won by a hair's breath after thousands of Canadians came to Montreal from all over the country to participate in the huge Canada rally the weekend before the referendum. These days, the attitude of people in the ROC seems to be more of a "good riddance, we're tired of Quebec's whining anyway". Who would come to another federalism rally? What Canadian PM or federal leader would dare spend money campaigning for Canada in this post-sponsorship scandal era? If the PQ goes on the upswing again, who will fight for the "no" campaign?

It's easy to get comfortable since the PQ had a disastrous referendim showing and sovereignty numbers are down. But it's cyclical, and if we get too comfortable, it could be a rude awakening.

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<hr>These days, the attitude of people in the ROC seems to be more of a "good riddance, we're tired of Quebec's whining anyway". <hr></blockquote> I don't know if that is true or not, but the real question is: is a 'get tough' policy more or less effective in supressing separatism than the politics of appeasement we have seeng for decades? Decades during which the seperatistes became much more vocal, and more successful.

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<hr>So long as federalists don't do anything particularly stupid like talking about the Constution<hr></blockquote>Todays news (can't find a link) is reporting that Harper is tabling legislation to expand the House of Commons, with BC getting ( Ithink ) seven more seats, Alberta six more and Ontario 24 more to reflect changes in demographics. The Maritmes,quebec, Sask and MB remain the same. I wonder how Quebec will react to that dilution of their influence?

Well, the only reason it's 'cyclical' is when federalists try to use the constitution to further their political aims. The only reason the 95 referendum was close because of the lingering resentment over the failure of Meech Lake and the presence of St. Lucien. Even with an inept yes campaign, they still pulled it out and no one and I mean, no one will be stupid enough again to reopen the constitution.

The overall pattern for separatists is one of decline. The message for federalists is to ignore them and their agenda and they will fade away.

There you are, #13 is a perfect example of what I mean. I can't even say I blame him. We're sick of it too. But it's also tough, as a Federalist living in Quebec, for me to say "aw, screw it!" Sure, I'm fed up with it, but Canada is my country and I'm not prepared to just give up, I believe it's worth fighting for. But it's a really tough sell within the province to tell people "stay in a country where you're unwanted". Quebec federalists are more than half of us, remember that - probably even more than 2/3 if a clear question was ever asked (polling data suggests that up to 40% of "yes" voters in 1995 really wanted Quebec to remain part of Canada). When people feel unwanted at a party, they're more likely to want to leave.

Oh cripes. Not getting into this.

But I will point out that it might not be a shoe-in for Duceppe, as there is actually a lot of support for Pauline Marois as PQ leader, which she should have been.

Actually Bloc MPs have worked on many dossiers; my local MP is Bloc and is a strong environmentalist; the Bloc has also worked on issues of unemployment insurance.

By the way, I vote NDP federally, knowing it is simply a protest vote (in case someone assumed I was a Bloc supporter from the above post).

Segacs - I can see your arguement but when you say 'stay in a country where you are unwanted' you could insert most any province and it would apply. Each province is getting a raw deal somewhere from being part of Canada, but for almost every province as a whole is better off for being here. I do not want to turn this into a western seperatism arguement, but one could say that they have as strong an arguement as Quebec to seperate. The one thing that is different is that most people out here think/realize that they are benefitting by being a part of Canada and thus the debate has never garnered the support that it did in Quebec. There are a couple provinces within Canada that should be able to make a go of it on their own, but for most the seperation issue would turn the newly formed country into a welfare state.

I really hope Pauline Marois wins over Duceppe. Not that I hate Duceppe (I know both of these people slightly, from work in the trade-union movement) but I was very, very furious as a woman that Marois got dismissed as "too old" - she is a year younger than Duceppe. She and other women in the PQ have done a lot to advance the cause of equality of women, whatever one thinks of the PQ constitutional outlook.

It would somehow be appropriate for Marois, as one of the old separatist hardliners, to captain the PQ's sinking ship. My prediction is that the PQ will either sink to minor 3rd party status after the next election or the rats will board the ADQ and let the PQ vessel sink to the bottom.

I'm kinda hoping for Marois too; from my perspective, she's less charismatic than Duceppe and therefore probably less of a threat.

On the other hand, I wish the Liberals would finally find some real leadership. I hold my nose every time I vote for them.

Très dommage que c'est TOUT ce qu'elle signifie à vos yeux malgré tout ce qu'elle a fait pour faire avancer la cause des femmes. Bizarre. Je connais plusieurs féministes indépendantistes qui reconnaissent l'oeuvre de Thérèse Casgrain par exemple, même si elle était plutôt fédéraliste. Mais je ne crois pas que les questions sociales vous intepellent particulièrement. Tandis que l'ADQ est un parti réac, homophobe et a relents xénophobes - quelque chose dont toute personne saine d'esprit ne devrait pas souhaiter l'émergence...

I don't vote for bourgeois parties - whether the Libs or the PQ. Why would I vote for rich people intent on exploiting me?

So I don't really vote on the basis of the national question, eh? I vote Québec solidaire in Québec elections, NDP in federal ones.

Well if you vote for Quebec Solidaire, we probably disagree on more than just the sovereignty issue...

Yes, probably on far more fundamental things. I don't just vote for Québec solidaire, I'm a founding member. Before the party had actually taken a position on the national question. I know several federalists who belong - and non sovereignists who have stood as QS candidates, just as I know more than one sovereignist who ran for the NDP. There are other issues far more important to me than whether Québec becomes an independent country or not. And I suspect that there are many "sovereignists" and "federalists" in Québec who would prefer some kind of other arrangement. Think the same range of opinions can be found in Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country ... and among Aborginal peoples who are of course the most downtrodden by all colonising peoples and levels of government.

I don't hang out on travel boards to discuss politics - I'm on other boards for that, now for the organisation of the Forum social québécois (Québec social forum). I'm on travel boards to help travellers and get advice from others.

#24, are you comparing Quebecois to aboriginal people in Australia, or in Canada for that matter? Seriously?

No. Of course not!

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<hr> and among Aborginal peoples who are of course the most downtrodden by all colonising peoples and levels of government.
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"All colonising people" includes the French and their heirs, eh?

The comparison was to other "nations" in the sociological sense (Scotland, Catalonia, Euskadi...) within larger States, where there is some sort of independentist or autonomist movement. And I deliberately chose nations of the same "race" as the dominant group within the State. I was talking about the range of opinions within such nations as to whether sovereignty, some kind of associate status, or the status quo would be the best solution.

Not about the ethnocide against Aboriginal peoples. The only possible equivalent as concerns "white" Francophones is Le Grand Dérangement, the deportation of the Acadians - and yes, some did die at sea and in transit. The Métis rebellions were ruthlessly put down, but ethnic cleansing of Aboriginal people played at least as big a part in that as anti-French bigotry did.

When I said "Aboriginal peoples" I meant that there was and is a wide range of views as to the best "national" or "constitutional" solution for their deplorable situation, among those peoples. This from someone who has quite a bit of experience with the politics of First Nations.

And did you seriously think I was comparing those very different situations, or are you just being an angryphone antagonist?

Duceppe is now backtracking... his run lasted a mere 24 hours. Now that's staying power, ladies and gentlemen...

More on this story from the Globe and Mail: Duceppe has changed his mind, and Pauline Marois speaks out about the old boy's network's backroom tactics against a woman candidate: Duceppe decides against PQ leadership bid. - as in many political parties, misogyny remains an undercurrent.

Duceppe doesn't come across as particularly serious in this, to put it mildly, and certainly not "a team player". (Comes across as a flake, to be blunt). He has a reputation as someone who is not willing to listen or compromise, and I think a lot of people are sick of that kind of "great leader". Marois has a much better reputation in that sense as someone who listens to others, even "across the table" (in public sector negotiations, in dealings with other levels of government or with representatives of other political parties.

I spoke to quite a few feminists about this, none of whom are in the PQ (and who have a range of opinions as to sovereignty/federalism etc) and they are all rather pleased by this turnaround.

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<hr>they are all rather pleased by this turnaround. <hr></blockquote>
Me too, as always I am in solidarity with my sisters.
Glad to see Duceppe remain as leader of the Bloc, next election will be his sixth I think, and the party is going nowhere at this time. The universe is unfolding as it should.

Solidarity with my sisters ... (you did not tell me that you had a sex change)

But manly men like myself have sisters Beachie....

I see ...

You learn something new every day !

You had never heard of brothers and sisters before today?
That is unique.

No, that is very cool, and I'm so glad - whatever your opinion, mine or others, that you aren't being "antagonistic". We have to remember that this is a travel site - fine and dandy to discuss politics, religion or any damned thing, but we have to imagine that we are in an inn somewhere (I imagine a driving rain... and a fair amount of beer, wine, goodies of various types and free time) shooting the shit.

In the States, if a politician suddenly drops out of a race so quickly after jumping in, its more often than not that an embarrasing personal incident is about to be exposed on them. Since I usually follow the political workings back home, this system up here is terribly intriguing, and with such a rapid exit like Duceppes, I really wonder what happened.....

Since I am only a visitor in this immensely huge country, I can only marvel at the tremendous amount of anti-Quebec statements here on the west coast. Last night I went out for coffee with friends here in Vancouver, and since the group was composed of Canadians from both east and west, I was surprised to see the harshness of the coments.

Personally, I would love to see Quebec, especially the Sept Isles area up to Schefferville, and of course the Gaspe peninsula. Since I don't speak French, I am reluctant to embark on a trip back there, just yet.

I think the reason Duceppe backtracked is pretty straightforward. He realized a bit belatedly that he was going to lose to Madame Marois, and would therefore be unemployed.

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<hr>You had never heard of brothers and sisters before today?<hr></blockquote>

Sure, but I did not know you had solidarity with us sisters ;)

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<hr>That is unique. <hr></blockquote>

heh

Don't you know by now that I am unique !

Well said segacs, and your comments are something of yet another example of the the 'two solitudes'.
I doubt many outside Quebec would consider themselves 'an equal citizen of this province'. I think of myself as a citizen of Canada, resident in a province.

Er, sorry, that's not what I meant at all. My comment was on feminism, not on Quebec politics. I'm a citizen of Canada, proudly so, and I just said province because Pauline Marois would like to fancy herself as the next PM of an independent Quebec, but of course Quebec ain't a country, it's a province.

I thought it was officially a 'nation' now?
Works for me......

#41, groan... not one of Harper's smarter decisions (assuming he made any)...

Quebec is most certainly a nation, in the sociological sense. That does not entail that is is or will become a sovereign state - there are many multinational states in the world.

I'm not pleased about Marois simply because she is a woman; sure as hell wouldn't support Thatcher or Merkel. Pleased about Marois because she has had a role in many progressive policies such as public daycare (CPE) and eliminating the confessional school system.

Her choice will be somewhat of an antidote to the rightwards drift of Québec politics, and a reaffirmation of social-democracy.

I'm not proud to be a citizen of anything, and find that idea rather nauseating, whether federalists or sovereignists advance it.

Yes, indeed there is a lot of bigoted antagonism towards Québec and its aspirations, and discussions like this on English-speaking boards do have a lot of that old "the natives are restless" tone about them. Would make me furiously indépendantiste, but I can find equally reductive discussions in French that are a good antidote to such enthusiasms.

I am a nation.

#43, what you see as bigotry towards Quebecs 'aspirations', many other Canadians see as simple common sense, as in the concept that there are no degrees of equality.