4 countries, 3 months each, for retirement : how do you organise yourself ?

Hello. My idea for retirement is the following : spend the year in 4 countries, 3 months each (I am currently thinking about Thailand, Morocco, Brazil and Canary Islands or Florida). I am French and Spanish citizen.

The idea for doing is are that normally for a 3 months stay you do not have major visa problems, you are normally not deemed to be a resident for taxes... so if you do it well, you choose a country for tax residency which is cheap -so pay little taxes-, live in these places where life is decently cheap, have good weather if you plan it in order to optimize your weather (be out of Thailand for example for the rainy season)... and you do not get bored by changing atmosphere every 3 months.

I have read this is called being a Permanent Tourist.

I would like to know if you have done it and how you organise yourself : do you buy a flat in each country ? -my initial calculation is that you roughly pay for these 4 what you would pay for one if you had chosen to live in a big European city- do you rent it the 9 months you're not there ? what about medical insurance when you live like this ? I assume your pension you can collect in an account at your previous home. My idea is to live on my investments anyway -I assume better held offshore so you do not gain a residency based on the principal centre of your interests. But I think about practicalities : not easy to get a phone line for 3 months per year, a gym subscription for 3 months, a maid for 3 months a year...

I would like to hear from people who did something like that and don't mind sharing how they have structured themselves.

I also understand that at some stage when you get too old then you must settle somewhere... so far I am thinking about a nice retirement home in the Philippines. But still a long way to go (hopefully).

haven't retired yet - but thoughts:

• you do actually get fed up with moving on all the time. This will be fun for a while but eventually you will want to put down roots rather than continually moving. Six months in each place will work better.
• yes, all the other things are entirely true. The ideal is having an 'opposite number' someone who swaps houses with you for the other half of the year.
• medical issues only get more difficult as you get older.

sorry to be negative - consider it for a few years rather than as a 'to the end of life' option.

Hi,

Sorry, I haven't done this either, but I do go between Australia and Indonesia, usually spending about 3 months in each.

My initial thought is that buying property in each place would be a nightmare! Having one property in a country you are not a legal full-time resident in sounds tricky, but having 4? I think that would make for one stressful retirement!

My experience in Indonesia and Thailand is that there are many travellers who come looking to put down roots for a few months to a year, so there are quite a few accommodation options (for example, furnished bungalows with a little kitchen) for people who are looking for long-term stays. Maid service can often come with the bungalow, and in my experience, this kind of thing isn't so hard to organise for the short term.

You would probably have a mobile phone connection rather than getting an actual phone line, so that's probably not going to be a big issue.

Of course, I've only done this kind of thing in Asia - I don't know about Brazil, Morocco etc.

I think it sounds like a pretty cool idea - lots of fun. I'd do it for a year and see how you liked it, and whether, as #1 says, 3 months is too little time in one place.

Oh, one more thought, you could check out airbnb.com for furnished apartments/houses. They seem to have a decent selection, although a bit more expensive that what you'd pay if you just landed and looked around for accommodation, IMO.

Good luck!!!

Thanks for your feedback. I do use AirBNB often when I travel, good selection indeed.
The issue with 6 months is that you mostly get into visa issues once you are over 3 months (I have 2 nationalities so 2 passport, so that may help).
I take your point that this must be a living mode for a couple of years and then I may want to stabilise. Maybe start with 4, then 2...then one.

If you end up flying from one continent to another 4x a year, wouldn't that NOT save you money?

Ah, but the objective is not to save money, it's having 'fun' at a good rate. At the end of the day, the flight is let's say 1000 USD 4 times per year, which is easily offset by tax gains and day to day costs.

I like your 'neverwinter' nickname, this is a bit my objective haha, have sun all year round :-)

yep, did seven years without a winter! As someone said 'nights are drawing in, time to change hemispheres'.

you do want to come home eventually - and I've been lucky enough to return to a relaxed lifestyle - but it was rather fun. Must get on with the memoirs.

My inner pedant needs to point out that Florida is not a country.

What about owning a home in one or two countries in 'good' locations and then organising house exchanges with them. That could be an interesting way to spend a few years.

I don't think having 2 passports will make any difference on visa issues.

It would certainly be an interesting way to live for a few years. Personally I think I'd prefer the 6 months option with a few holidays thrown in. Keep us posted on what you end up doing.

You need legal and accounting advice re investments and tax residency - it totally depends on your current citizenship - if you are Irish or NZ its very difficult to become non-resident - while for the uK and US its quite a lot easier.

As above I can't imagine anything worse than owning 4 properties- and ownership will more than likely make you a tax resident to some degree.

House sitting is big in some countries - or you just hire an apartment short-term- this seems very cost effective in Asia.

Travel insurance will probably come down to, again, where you are now and what your citizenship is - ie where do you want to be repatriated to?

Why on earth would you want a home phone? Buy a SIM as you arrive at the airport.

purpletreefrog said in #8: My inner pedant needs to point out that Florida is not a country.

...and I need to point out that the Canary Islands aren't a country.

midlifetravel said in #9: You need legal and accounting advice re investments and tax residency

I agree.

cyril_madrid said in the OP: I assume your pension you can collect in an account at your previous home.

Don't assume things! Confirm them! This is valid not only for your pension but for your investments, tax residency...

cyril_madrid said in the OP: spend the year in 4 countries, 3 months each
cyril_madrid said in the OP: The idea for doing is are that normally for a 3 months stay you do not have major visa problems

Some countries will allow you to be there visa free up to 90 days which it's not exactly the same as 3 months as you described them (90x4=360 whilst a year has 365 or 366 days. Therefore, you would need to spend a few days in a fifth country). Other countries will have different rules so you'll have to look for the specific rules of your desired countries.

I'm afraid you have to make a lot of research about the bureaucratic aspects of your plan. Don't forget to pay close attention to all the details and nuances!

Keep us posted with the results of your research!

The issue of switching properties is nice, but if I want for example to avoid Thailand for the rainy season, I am not sure to find a volunteer who will want to spend all the rainy season there !

The phone line was more for DSL.

I take your points that managing 4 properties maybe a mess... From your feedback, I may design my plan with 2 main properties, + 1 months in 2 locations renting. 4 countries seem a lot to many people, but currently it is about 20 countries I go to per annum, so it seems even relaxed to me ;) Luckily, I expect to retire in my early 50s, so I hope to still have health for that for at least 10 years. There is no problem in spending a few days in other countries as I am quite used to talking long week ends in neighbouring countries while I am in one place.
But your suggestions of 2 countries put me in a situation of being above the 90 days limit, so unless I do 90 days, go out a bit, and come back -maybe in a different passport-, this is more complex. And no way I I want to spend any 183 days in one country for tax, and my money is all held outside of the countries which I am considering.

Of course I will go for legal advice, but I want to draft my plan beforehand. And obviously tax advice is capital as the main objective is to reduce my taxation (besides having fun).

What I am currently doing is regularly going to the places I have selected to be sure I like living there, learning the language... unfortunatly when you work you cannot spend long period of times in one place...

A few years ago, I met a couple (2 guys) in India, and they explained to me : this month we are in India, next month in Brazil, then South Africa, ... so I asked : yes, but where are you from ? They said, oh, we travel the world ! Loved the expression and the life style ;)

One rule for expats is; Don't buy a house, till you live at least a year, in your chosen area. The longer you live there, the better you find out how things REALLY work there.

Like corruption, work ethic of repairmen, blue eye tax (overcharging foreigners) and other things. Relyability of mail service. Emergency hospitals, cheap ethical places to get things.

Renter's laws; If they quit paying rent, can you kick 'em out?

You own something / it owns you.

I have been thinking about the property question recently. The biggest downside to owning property is that it sets you up good and proper to be taxed, as well as the victim of thieves, particularly if you are absent for a long time. Additional properties mean additional pain.

Having been retired for 23 years now I think I have some insight into the subject.

It is in fact entirely possible to become non-resident in any country for tax purposes. It is not however easy or practical over the long term. Maintaining health insurance with no fixed abode for example becomes impossible after a few years.

It can also affect any government pension you may be entitled to based on having lived and worked in your home country. Canada for example bases their OAS (old age security) pension on the number of years after age 18 that you have lived in Canada. For the maximum pension you need to have lived in Canada for 40 years. For every year less than that you lose 1/40th of the pension. You are also required to have lived in Canada for the year (or 2 years, I forgot) previous to applying. So you have to stay there for that year at least to even apply!

There are other practical issues that also make constantly moving pretty unrealistic. I don't intend to try listing them all here. Why, because it isn't necessary, you just need to know they exist. But that isn't really the biggest factor. The biggest factor is that you will simply get tired of constantly moving from place to place. So forget about visas and weather. You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

What you are really saying cyril is that you will have enough income to live from and no longer need to live in any one country. You are also saying that you would like to travel and try living in other countries for periods of time. Where you are going wrong is in thinking you will want to do that forever. There is a saying, 'you can't get/see there from here'. Anyone who is not retired cannot see how life will be when they are retired. That's just common sense. But most people THINK they can see there from where they are now. That's just common naivity.

Trust me, what you want will change when you are here. Since retirement I have travelled, I have spent extensive amounts of time in different countries and I have come to this conclusion. I can live wherever I want to live (more or less) each day. It really doesn't matter how long I stay or if I ever move on. When I get up in the morning I might decide to move, I might not. Here is a true story to get your head around.

I went to a Greek island expecting to spend a week or so seeing the island. I stayed for 7 years. While living there I would meet tourists who when they learned I lived there would ask, 'what made you decide to stay here?' I would honestly answer that I had never decided to stay, I just hadn't decided to leave yet. That is what the freedom to choose is all about. I currently live in Canada again where I grew up. I live here because my wife wanted to live here (she's Scottish). It's new to her and comfortable for me. Who knows where we may be living tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, or even the next decade.

So my advice is to just go travelling when you retire and stay as long as you can legally stay in a place or until you want to move on. You can't plan how your retirement will go and the good thing is you don't have to. Just do what you wake up wanting to do each day and it will all work out exactly as you want it to.

Good insight, for sure, if you've been retired for 23 years.

It is true that desires may change over time. It is true that in retirement you have the additional freedom of deciding every day if you want to move.

This is the planning side of me, I like to plan it to the possible extent beforehand. To some extent, I would say that knowing whether you want to stay a week or 7 years can make a difference for visa, tax, and quite a few aspects of life.

I think the most revealing must be the first year, then you see which country you enjoy most, where it is easier to leave, if indeed you are tired of moving from one country to the other...

Thanks indeed for your insight and keep enjoying !

I do this, more or less, and the biggest problem, as mentioned in #1, is that it's a pain in the ass. About the time I'm back to settled in India it's time to go again.

Find out how long you are allowed in country. And how long to stay out, so you can get another visa.

You don't need to own a car. even back home. Or be stuck with a poorly built house.

You own something / it owns you.

In Costa Rica, for one example, if you get to your holiday paradise, and you find squaters there.

You can't legally kck 'em off your place.

My advise would be to buy one property in your legal residence, so that would be the Canary Islands based on you being an EU pp holder.

Then I would simply rent the other nine months of the year wherever you want and as 'winter' is the high season in the Canaries you shouldn't have too much problem renting your own place out, in fact you could make a packet over xmas/new years.

Sounds cool, try not to take too much on-board from the resident doom-mongers of TT.

Not sure that it is still true, but there are countries where if you have a certain level of income, you can get residence.

Rainy season in Thailand isn't terrible. It's not like the UK where it rains all the time. It is hot and rainy and then it clears. It storms and then it clears. I spent 2.5 years in Thailand including 3 rainy seasons and there are actually some positives about the rainy season in that it can be cooler and the temperatures more comfortable. My point is you really don't know what you might be missing.

Try a country for a few weeks or a few months and see if it's the one before you invest in buying places. In the end, you might find your home in the country of your passport.

Ruth

One mistake newbie expats make; They buy a place b4 living there a year or more. B4 they really know how things really work, regardless of laws and retrictions. Or work ethic of repairmen.

The longer you live in a location, as you learn... you find out you don't like it so much.

Or you learned about a cooler (in many ways,) a pueblo or twenty minutes away. In Quepos, Costa Rica, a guy told me he lived just out of town. It was always 15 digrees cooler there than in town.

And an extranjero selling a house, can get screwed bad.
If buyers find out when you have to leave, they will lowball you at the "last minute" for your sacrifice.

btw "equity" is a sales gimic.

live in these places where life is decently cheap

Brazil probably isn't as cheap as you thought. Property prices and rent have sky rocketed in recent years and it's actually getting out of control for prices on a lot of things.