Planning a trip to Europe for 4.5 months Dec-April 07/08

Hello,
Just planning a trip for the first time to Europe End Nov - Mid April. Just come out of a long term relationship, a solo male traveller, yardi yada, relatively shy, but plucking up the courage and have booked a trip, starting in London. Hopefully it works out and I get to meat plenty of like minded solo travellers. Purchased the Lonely Planet Shoestring guide. problem is, is that it does not have suggested itineries per country unlike the old editions. Does any one know where I can get hold of these to bring?

I want to go to winter conjusive countries, which means I have to cut out some of the summer hotspots which I will save for another time:

So far and have mapped out some tentative route (I will be purchase a Eurail 3 mth pass and perhaps another 1 month one to make 4 months?) Need I do that, or just start with 3 months and the other month see how I go? I am getting it quite cheap as I know someone in the travel industry. I have planned for about $1,000 a week which I hope would be suitable (and up to $25k total), staying in hostels etc:

The order?
UK
Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Belgium
France
Spain
Switzerland
Italy
Austria
Hungary
Czech

I guess there are many variations to this. Would have liked to do Croatia etc, but dont think it would be great for winter. Perhaps I could fit in more over 4 mths, possibly Poland as well and Slovenia, not sure. But better do do there properly than skim I think.

Any other sugegstions and assistance would be awesome. I guess I have to bring a long plenty of layers and thermals :-)

Can't you get a cheaper flight, than to London?

If you're going to cover, skim most of Europe anyway...
As we usually say on here, pick a smaller area.
4.5 months ain't that long for doing it real justice. Absorb is the watchword.

TYou may get a fascination with a certain period in history. And want to follow it. Gawkism #335; Travel plans should be just a rough outline.

You have friends out there you haven't met yet. Seriously.

A favorite gawkism of mine; We won't know what we're dealing with, till we get there.
History didn't just happen in capitol cities. Yea, nor big ones.

One bad thing about return tickets is; they don't let us go home as soon as we're broke. Or have had enough travel. Whether sooner or later.

Southern Europe is cheaper than northern too. You may want to chill on a beach. You'll need good rest occasionally. And a chance to chill from all the sensory overload.
-------------------
WELCOME TO THE HEALTHIEST, COOLEST ADDICTION.
SEE THE WORLD? WHY NOT?

I don't know all of the details, but you'll want to check into the Schnengen (sp?) visa regime to see if that will cause you problems.

A couple of ideas:

-- I don't really think there's much need to have a set itinerary. With 4+ months, you can travel at whatever pace you'd like to, staying and savoring certain cities, and just passing through others. You might want a general idea of things you want to see in a certain country/region, but while you're on the road you might get ideas from other travelers, or be in the mood for a city/rural area, etc., etc. You're traveling in the off season, so there's no reason to make tons of advance reservations (The exception will be holidays like New Year's Eve.) Use www.hostelworld.com to book while you're on the road.

-- You'll be able to see a lot of countries in 4.5 months, so the world (or at least Europe) is your oyster. But do heed #1's advice about taking it slow, and not spending all of your time on the train, zigzagging through Europe.

-- It sounds like you have an idea of some countries you want to visit. What I might suggest is that you go to your local library and pick up a copy of the Lonely Planet, Rough Guide, etc., guidebook for those particular countries. They don't even need to be current editions. Just browse through them for suggested itineraries and ideas for places to see and things to do. But as noted above, don't be afraid to plow your own trail, and get away from the typical tourist path.

-- For transportation, check out the guide to rail passes at www.seat61.com and at www.ricksteves.com.<BR><BR>-- Get a good pair of waterproof hiking boots, and it might be better if they were at least a bit insulated. Many of those countries will be snowy and slushy for walking at that time of year. I'd personally probably want to save the more northerly countries for April, and stay south more often during the heart of winter.

-- Generally speaking, for your budget, you'll want to calculate all of your transportation costs. To that, you'll want to add about 25 Euros per night for hostel beds, and a few Euros per day for local transportation and incidentals. Meals can range from basic street food and grocery store (5-10 Euros per day) to one sit-down meal per day (another 10-15 per day) to eating out all of the time (which can add up to a lot of money awfully quickly.) Museums and tourist attractions will set you back about 10 Euros per visit on average, so maybe you'll want to budget for one of those per day or every other day. Add another 5-6 Euros per drink for nights out. Prices will obviously vary, but these are some basic averages. It sounds like your budget is pretty good, and I'm guessing that you'll probably end up being able to get by for less than $25k total if you are smart about it. (Is that U.S. dollars or Aussie dollars?)

Dave

Hate to mention this once again. Understand that you are not from the EU - guess that you do not have a passport from an EU country (if you have: skip reading next lines).
From late December all the countries you mention expect UK and Switzerland will be members of the Schengen . This means that you wil be there illegally after 90 days - so unless you intend to spend 1½ month in the UKSwitzerland you must change yor plans. Croatia will also be outside Schengen.

Which kind of mone are those $ US,Singapore, Australian?
1000 USD/week = 100€/day - if the transport (Eurail etc.) is paid, you stay at dorms and mostly eat grocery food, then you will be fine - actually very fine. Problem is that as soon as you start on "own room, restaurants, drinks" - it is suddenly not very much - or far too little. So you must be prepared that you fundamentally are travelling dorm/grocery food - after a week or two you get the feeling of how much "extras" you can afford with your level of entrance fee/drink/local transport - expenses and can adlust your spendings.

You should also make up your mind how you will spend those 10 days/country - see capital one place more? travel around a lot (1 day/town or place)? - in the last case - try to cut some of the countries. Since you are travelling midwinter - cold and rainy a very large part of the time - coutryside not at its best to put it mildly - you probably will stay to larger towns, right?

If sticking to your list I think the following order is more logical:
UK
Belgium
Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Czech
Hungary
Austria
Italy
Switzerland
France
Spain

Driving a rent car will eat money. And it removes you from the fun learning you could do on trains

Concerning the Schengen rule addressed already in #3 you should consider to visit the countries implementing Schengen in the week before Christmas (Czech Republic, Hungary also Poland and Slovenia) before this point of time. Thus they are not on the 90 days count for Schengen.

A reason to visit Germany before Christmas are the Christmas Markets.

Thanks for all your post. All of you have been so helpful and willing to provide useful advise. I will share a little more info:

I am travelling from Melbourne, Australia direct to Israel first, to spend a couple of weeks with my dad who lives there. I am using frequent flyer points all the way, so not paying for the flight other than taxes. I will be booking a budget airline (Isstadirect or Thompson Travel) to London Luton, so that Israel know I have booked a flight out.

I was born in the UK, but hold an Australian passport. It says I was born in Middlesex, but not sure whether that would suffice given the Schengen agreement as the above posts have mentioned. I assume I have to book a return flight as well. This could be return to Melbourne anywhere in Europe. I will book the return (in advance) with points as well. Should there be an issue with the return date, I can always change this and just sacrifice between 2,500-5,000 pts, which isn't too bad. There always seems to be flights going out. Where else can I check to see whethr I am doing the right thing according to Schengen?

#1 I take you point regarding southern Europe, however, this is something I would prefer to save for another trip, at a warmer time, so that I can enjoy the beaches and islands. I would like to go to Croatia, but not sure whether winter is the best time. But I'd like to relax a while in Switzerland in a off the beaten track hostel (can't remember the name of the place, but was recommended to relax and go on hikes etc)

#2 I have an older edition of the lonely planet and an old starters guide, which has suggested itineries of each country. I will photocopy and print these out. Disappoiting that the latest edition does not have suggested itineries for each country. eg. 2 day, 1 week stat, 2 wks, etc,
I will have a look in my local camping store for waterproof boots and goretex, insulated jackets, thermals etc, thanks

#3 Sorry neglected to mention, $AUD Australian dollars, so $AUD25k, is around EURO $15.7k. thanks for the country order, makes A LOT of sense. Yes I'd prefer to spend more time in each country. For place like Spain, 2 weeks, other smaller countries just a few days. Regarding budget, will all be dorms, although places like Italy looking forward to eating out, and more so in Eastern Europe.

re your passport/Schenge: You are extempt from the 90/180 days rule if you are a CITIZEN of one of the EU countries, that is (in practice) that you enter and leave on a standard passport issued by one of the EU countries. In that case you can stay 3 month/country (6 if you are looking for job. indef. if working or have sufficient funds and register).
Only way around is to get some specific visa (like for studying..), but that is VERY difficult and the visa will only give you extra time in ONE country.

Re itineraries: Actually I think it is good that they are gone from the guidebooks. There is soo much more to see in Europe that what you can see following those "trodden paths"/backpacker tracks from what ppl. are told to be must-sees that many non-European travellers follow. It will be much more interesting (and cheaper) if all travellers did not follow those: Venice-Cinque- terre-Florence-Rome - or Paris-Amsterdam-Berlin-Prague tracks.
In those cases where I need "a starting point itinerary", I look (on the net) up some organized bur-"tour" through the single countries/region in question and study the day-to-day programme. Much (negative) can be said about organised tours, but they do try to give their customers most for their buck and especially most for their time and they ARE (over a certain backpacker level) organized by local incoming agents that do know what ppl. mostly enjoy visiting their country! When you then realize that they all go to "the capital+xx-town and the yy-mountain region", then there is a very good reason to look up those places in your guidebook.
BTW - you shoul look into the single country LP guides!! The shoestring one is very "thin". Can't you borrow them on the library at home?

Another suggestion: Never go to a "country" for less than 3 days (one for travelling -2 to look around in ONE city) - think in places (cities. town, regions) and not in countries - I know that everybodys immediate reaction is to visit a large number of countries - but in reality the country-country difference (and even worse the capital-capital difference) is often much smaller than the regionA-regionB difference.
Example: Milan(o) and Naples/Napoli or Sicily are like on two different continents. Milan is not THAT much different (on the coarse scale) from London or Berlin.
Think this way - if you were to advise a visitor to Australia about an initerary - would you then make sure that (s)he would visit all the States and Territories? Think on Europe/EU the same way!

Thanks Bjoern, I certainly will go and visit the library or Borders bookstore in the next week. I'll have a good read of these and also look up other organised tours and get some brochures from travel agents. eg contiki, intrepid routes etc.

I am one that always wants to go off the beaten track, but I guess there will be many more times that I will return that I can cover more and more base. I'd live to visit countries a little bit more off the beaten track (maybe not so much more now) but like Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, but will save it to later.

In regards to the Schenge, yes I was born in London, but have lived in Australia for most of my life and will be travelling on an Australian passport. Its only reference to being British was place of birth, which has 'Middlesex'. Would this be enough, or would I require a British passport. If my Australian passport is not sufficient, would should I then fly into some other European city to start with? Its just that the cheap flights from Tel Aviv are to London and I think it is a good base to start from, I have family their etc.

So I have arranged it in this order now without delegating timeframes to each country:

UK
Belgium
Netherlands
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Poland ???
Czech
Hungary
Austria
Italy
Switzerland
France
Spain

That makes a budget of about 116 Euros per day. That should be just fine for a budget traveling lifestyle. You'll still have to be careful and smart about how you spend your money, but if you do that you'll be able to splurge on occasion.

Winter probably isn't the time I'd want to visit Croatia. Greece is a bit warmer, and I've spent some time in Greece in the winter and it was a pretty nice time to be there. Croatia, though, being further north, is likely to be a bit chilly. I've been there, though, in April, and it was a nice time to be there.

Dave

Also forgot to mention if I start in UK (under an Australian passport, although a citizen of UK), I will have to leave Europe within 3 months, as my flight will depart from London? Even if I finish in Barcelona, it will fly to Heathrow and depart from there?

Maybe it is just easier applying for a British passport straight away

I personally would recommend getting a UK passport if possible, this would save worry, you would also then be able to work in most of these contries without getting a visa (especially useful in the UK and the pound is so strong to the Aus$ and the euro).
With regards to where you leave, flights around europe (even at the last minute) are fairly cheap, or you can catch ferries to the UK from Spain, France and Holland pretty easily although I'm not sure about cost.
You mention at the start your a bit shy, so was I until I went traveling as a solo girl in Europe, it was the best thing I ever did!
Have a great time

Op re #8: None of the Schengen states would care whereever you are born - they ONLY look at the frontpage/outside of your passport -if it says Australia, then you are Australian - and the 90 days in side Schengen will apply for you.
If you enter Schengen in the Airport of Rome or through the chunnel to France or on a ferry to Belgium will not matter the least, unless one of these alternatives will make it possible for you to limit your Schengen stay to 90 days. Same for from where you leave. The situation with the countries that start implementing the Schengen rules while you are in Europe does complicate it a bit. The days in EEurope before they start the Schengen rules (i.e. in early Decenber) may/will probably not count as Schengen stay. But since you seems to be able to get a passport froman EU county, then do that and you can forget thinking on counting to 90!

Re # 13 - unless I am completely mistaken you won't need a visa to any of the countries on the list travelling on an Australian passport (or the UK one) - cannot fugure out which it should be. At least you won't need a visa when all but UK and Switzerland are Schengen members from December.

#14- U mean, Uk and Switzerland is now included in the free passport zone on Schengen countries coming on December? I tried to google all the info related to this one, but I cant find one, even to the schengen website..THIS IS good news .....any link to confirm?

WHen travelling in winter, don't plan too far ahead: If the weather gets really bad somewhere for weeks, it is great to be able to take a long distance bus and go somewhere else. It can soemtimes be really unpredictable

And don't book ahead till you're reeeaaally ready to move on. You won't be back.
And you can't capture a moment or road friend again. We all learn from each other. It takes wonderful time.

#15 - UK and Switerland are NOT in the Schengen zone. No palns for the UK to join, Switzerland maybe/probably soon.
The rest of the countries om OPs list will be in Schengen from Dec - if they arn't allready.
You should be aware of the difference:
A passport form an EU country entitles you to live and stay in any EU country as long as you work there - or have funds (simplifed, but more or less). The only part of Scehengen you see is the lack of 100% passport control between the Schengen countries.
Non-EU passport holder should forget about EU )in this respect), but realize the 90/180 days rule for the active Schengen countries. And norte that this rule applies to both those that have to get a specific Schengen visa before leaving home and to those that do not need a visa for visiting the Schengen area.
EU is different from Schengen which is different from the €-countries.
And you although these areas are different - they ARE deeply connected.
#15 you are from Belgium and must know all this by heart - most of the remarks above are in order to - once again - enlighten the those general non-european potential visitors (not thinking on the OP of this thread), that seems to have so big difficulties in getting this -and who unfortunately does not seem to check the rules before planning unrealistic trips.

BTW - the Schengen area is NOT a passport-free zone - ppl. from many Schengen countries must carry their passports when travelling in Schengen as they do not have a national ID-card with photo. Schengen is a "no passport check AT THE BORDER" zone.

Ok I just figured that it is possible that I may not be able to get the right documentation and attain a British passport in time, being only 5 weeks away! For the sake of counding totally naiive like many non-European visitors do, how does one attain a Schengen Visa> I assume upon arrival as is free to Australian residents for the 90/180day rule?

So if I divide it like this starting Britiain, I should be ok? This is only a very rough example:

UK: 10 days
Belgium: 3 days (Schengen)
Netherlands: 7 days (Schengen)
Denmark: 5 days (Schengen)
Sweden: 5 days (Schengen)
Germany: 10 days (Schengen)
Poland: 7 days
Czech: 5 days
Hungary: 5 days
Austria: 5 days (Schengen)
Italy: 10 days (Schengen)
Switzerland: 7 Days
France 10 days (Schengen)
Spain: 15 days (Schengen)
UK depart: 1 day

There are total 9 Schengen Countries, 75 days (total), allow an additional day travel between each, then 84 days. Non-Schengen countries, 34 days, total 118 days. Then I may have a few days to do say Slovenia or Romania/Bulgaria - Isnt Romania and Bulgaria joining soon?

The only other problem upon entry from the UK, my flight waill say return airfare to Melbourne mid-April from the UK. This means cusoms will think I am overstaying my tourist visa in the UK. Then will I have to book some cheapy from Uk-France before I leave? This should be OK? In which case later on in the trip, I will book my return to Melbourne from London?? If anyone knows thr answer to this, I'd be eternally greatful! :)

Rather should I say book some cheap flight to Belgium (not France) so British authorities know I am leaving. Then later in the trip, book my 1 way back from London to Melbourne

You do not need a Schengen visa, being Australian - you pass the Schengen border like passing any other border -show your passport, the officer swipes it through the OCR reader (he should at least) - and off you go - but the 90/1800days rule still applies to you.

You cannot - by any probability - obtain a "real visa" that could entitle you to a longer stay. And def. not in 5 weeks.
You have, it seems 2 probelms: UK and Schengen
For the UK a booking of a travel out of UK after a short period (as you mention) will probably be all you need - but the UK immigration is notoriously unpredictable - esp. for young people.
Your Schengen probelm is worse than you think: When entering Belgium your passport is scanned and the computer (the "Schengen Information System) register you as having entered Schengen. Since ALL the countries you will be visiting afterwards (minus Switzerland) are Schengen countries from late December (Poland maybe from October 28th!!) your passport will not be registred as having left Schengen at all until reaching Switzerland.
When entering Switserland MAKE SURE that the passport control in ITALY (probably you have to look for the passport control!) - register you as having left Schengen! (if not possible - keep hostel bills!). If you a lucky your passport will NOT be scanned traveling from Switzerland into France.
The day you leave Spain for travelling to UK you MAY be in trouble (or at any contact with authorities during the last days in Spain, when you have passed the 90 days limit).

PROBABLY nothis will happen - no reaction at all - MAYBE you will be told that you have overstayed "don't do that again, the computer now remebers that",
- there is a small risk that you will be interrogated for some hours (make sure to go to the airport early - and that it isn't a cathastrophy is you miss your flight to the UK! - i.e. there must the sufficient time (days) in the UK before the plane to Australia leaves, and you must havemoney to buy a full fare ticket oin another plane!). If your Swiss stay isn't registred you can try to come with "but I was in Switzerland for VERY long - show some bills etc.
- and finally there IS (a VERY, VERY small) risk, that you will be detained - and get a "not allowed to enter Schengen for xx years" stamp in the passport. In addition the those direct probelm it may caurse you in the future - and in ajob(?!) - it also wil lattract a lot of interest oth by the UK immigration later on that day and even by the passport control at home!
But for an Australian - not havng caused any trouble, the risk IS extremely small.
Another thing is that your travel insurance probably won't coveranything when you have reached the "illegal" period.

WoW. 21! Sounds like he had better go to England first. If the passport de England takes very long.. he'll need that 90 days or so.

Lucky he's not dealing with Spanish beurocracy. I met lots of folks who just gave up...

Wow! Thanks guys. I must say that this forum is filled with some very VERY helpful people with great insight and willing to help out. Thank you so much!

The good news is that I have found a British passport in a box in my study (which I didn't know I had until now). It is my passport from when I came here as a kid, when I left NZ (as I lived there also). I have printed off the forms from online and sending it in early this week with my old passport to the British consulate in Canberra. Hopefully it won't take too long...It mentions less than 4 wks.


I guess I will then bring along my British passport and Australian passport with me. I assume as I will need to get back into Australia.

Anyhow hope my above schedule is not overly exhaustive for 4 and half months and in the right order including Poland...?!? The apportioned days Id say fits well, hopefully

my opinions:

-plan days per city, instead of days per country.
-everyone says dont rush through a long itinerary, "absorb" the trip, and i agree.... but, for those of us with time restriction (especially working folks from the US), we just dont have the vacation days the rest of the world gets, and planning a "shotgun" trip is fine. i averaged 2.5 days per city for my trip and i thought it was perfect.
-dont need 7 days in netherlands, sweden is kinda boring, 7 too much for switzerland, so how about allocating some days for other less touristed countries like Lithuania? personally id be very bored seeing too much of western europe

Thats fine. But this is my first time in Europe, and I dont think I cannot cover Earstern Europe when I will be doing Western Europe first. Later trips I can move on to other areas. eg eastern europe.

My reasoning for example spending a long time in Switzerland, is because it has always been somewhere which I have wanted to go. My friend spent 2 weeks of his 4 month trip there because he decided he loved it. It would be relaxing and i love the idea of taking in the scenery. That is why I want to visit Slovenia as well for the lakes etc..

In regards to travellign in Schengen with an Austrlian passport, my friend did this for over 4 months a few years ago and didnt even know about it and so did another freind why is coming back shortly over 4 months, never heard of it....They havent heard anything until I mentioned it, strange

Ok Have notched up an itinerary, Remember this is my first time, so big cities are in here. I just need to find out how to get around now, I can get half price Eurails, so maybe a 3 month one and 1 month pass will suffice (consecutive travel) + some flights. This leaves a couple of weeks spare as I can leave around mid April, bearing in mind some places I may stay less in some places more:

I have my B B Berocca with me! haha:

Europe Itinerary
November
Leave Melbourne 12/11
Arrive Tel Aviv 13/11 (Stay with family)
Depart Tel Aviv 2/12
December
Arrive London 2/12 See friends & family and depart before it chews up my savings
Depart London 7/12
Arrive Brussels 7/12
Depart Brussels 10/12 (incl. Brugge)
Arrive Amsterdam 10/12
Depart Amsterdam 14/12
Arrive Copenhagen (Flight) 14/12
Depart Copenhagen 17/12
Arrive Stockholm 17/12
Depart Stockholm 21/12
Arrive Talinn 21/12
Depart Talinn 24/12
Arrive Berlin (Flight) 24/12
Depart Berlin 28/12
Arrive Prague 29/12 New years?
Depart Prague 02/1

January
Arrive Krakow 3/1
Depart Krakow 6/1 (incl. Zakopane?)
Arrive Vienna 7/1
Depart Vienna 10/1
Arrive Budapest 11/1
Depart Budapest 15/1
Arrive Cluj-Napoca 16/1
Depart Cluj-Napoca 17/1
Arrive Brasov 17/1
Depart Brasov 20/1
Arrive Bucharest 20/1
Depart Bucharest 23/1
Arrive Belgrade 24/1
Depart Belgrade 27/1
Arrive Zagreb 28/1
Depart Zagreb 30/1
Arrive Ljubljana 30/1
Depart Ljubljana 1/2

February
Arrive Bled 1/2
Depart Bled 3/2
Arrive Venice 4/2
Depart Venice 7/2
Arrive Rome 7/2
Depart Rome 10/2
Arrive Florence 10/2
Depart Florence 12/2
Arrive Cinque Terre 12/2
Depart Cinque Terre 14/2
Arrive Milan 14/2
Depart Milan 15/2
Arrive Verona 15/2
Depart Verona 17/2
Arrive Munich 18/2
Depart Munich 21/2
Arrive Zurich 22/2
Depart Zurich 23/2
Arrive Lucerne 23/2
Depart Lucerne 25/2
Arrive Lausanne 25/2
Depart Lausanne 26/2
Arrive Gryon 26/2
Depart Gryon 29/2

March
Arrive Nice 2/3
Depart Nice 5/3
Arrive Barcelona 6/3
Depart Barcelona 10/3
Arrive Valencia 10/3
Depart Valencia 13/3
Arrive Grenada 13/3 Possible night at Paul’s (Costa Del Sol – Marbella)
Depart Grenada 17/3
Arrive Seville 17/3
Depart Seville 20/3
Arrive Cordoba 20/3
Depart Cordoba 21/3
Arrive Madrid 21/3
Depart Madrid 24/3
Arrive San Sebastian 24/3
Depart San Sebastian 26/3
Arrive Paris 27/3
Depart 31/3
Arrive/Depart London or Paris Leaves 2 weeks free. Can leave April 14ish

Just one idea for transport: If you have a gap in rail passes, try and have the gap be in January when you're in Eastern Europe. Trains there tend to be a bit cheaper than the ones in Western Europe.

Dave