European travelers and backpackers, please help!

Hi there!

I'm in need of some assistance for two reasons - an itinerary, and secondly a budget idea.
I will be in Europe from the 10th October to early January 2012.
I have a two month Eurail pass.
I'm 20 and haven't been to Europe before, although I've done a lot of travel before.

Aim - to explore as much of Europe as I can.
I'd like to go to Italy, South of France, Spain (Barcelona, Madrid, Seville), Switzerland, Slovenia, Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Amsterdam, Brussels, and then the UK towards the end of the trip (England, N. Ireland, Scotland).
I have roughly $10000 saved up. And friends over the UK to stay with.
Transport would be via rail (Eurail) or cheap flights.

Plan - Head from Athens via ferry to Italy.
Stay in Rome, Florence, Venice, Milan.
Train across to Nice.
Then train to Barcelona, Seville, and Madrid.
Shoot across to Zurich and Bern. Then Munich.
Munich to Slovenia - Vienna - Prague and then Berlin.
I would like to stay in Amsterdam for a week, fit Brussels in and then head over to the UK for New Years for about 3 weeks.

I know that's a lot to fit in. But I won't get an opportunity to travel again for quite some time. I have a friend accompanying me from Greece to Spain but then will be independent. I have 3 months.

And if anyone's looking for a travel buddy, let me know :-)

Any tips/ideas/recommendations regarding booking, where to stay, train travel, and budgets - please post them right here :-)
Thanks in advance,

Tom F

to explore as much of Europe as I can
No offense please, but one of the commonest mistakes first-time travelers make is to list 15-25-35-75 big cities that are spread out all over the continent and travel 1000s of kilometers to reach the next famous town, meanwhile bypassing the 100s of less well-known yet equally interesting towns in between.
With your itinerary you'll be spending half your time riding trains and hanging around stations waiting for them to depart, while you do none of the countries on your list any justice by visiting only 1, 2 or 3 tourist magnets there. Keep in mind that "ticking off as many cities on your list as physically possible" is not the same as "seeing as much as you can" - in fact, by focussing on a smaller area you'll lose less time and money traveling and have more time and money left to enjoy whichever city or town you are in.

Then one of my pet peeves - Amsterdam and Brussels often show up in lists of countries on this forum. They aren't, nor are they the only places worth visiting in the Netherlands and Belgium, even though 90% or more of all foreign visitors seem to think they are. They really don't know what they're missing.

What currency is your budget in? Better yet, since none of the countries in Europe use "$", how much do you have in euros, and what is that supposed to include? (I assume the Eurail pass and your air ticket to/from Europe is excluded?)

So out of 2 months you're planning on 3 weeks in the UK - that leaves 5 or 6 weeks for the rest of your trip.

If you plan for a MINIMUM of 3 days per destination that's about 13 places - though you should plan on more time in some places so let's say 10 places (excluding the UK). I'd keep it simple and travel from Athens to Spain and then up to the UK via France making a few stops along the way.

Forget about Switzerland, Germany, Slovenia, Czech Rep, Netherlands and Belgium.

Even by sticking to Italy, Spain and France you're barely scratching the surface. In fact maybe you should just visit Italy and Spain and transit through France then fly to the UK.

Too late to warn you of your, almost certain, foolish waste of money and time purchasing a rail pass.

I would go even further than Toad and go head to only perhaps two of those countries and the UK. Then you might get an idea of what we mean.

You are biting off more than you can chew. Its never pretty. And you'll stare out that train window an awful lot.

Thanks for your comments - I guess the general consensus is that I plan to do too much with too little time. What countries, do you suggest I spend the most time in?
Why do people consider a rail ticket such a waste?
I have about 7000 Euros as a budget. I plan to stay in Hostels and friend's houses where I can.

'Why do people consider a rail ticket such a waste?' - No one said that. Rail Pass, is what I think you meant.

If you had any kind of itinerary, it probably could be proved, compared to point to point purchase of tickets from the national rail carriers, a rail pass, with it's attendant additional fees in a number of cases, is a rip off. Most especially if planning and purchasing well in advance.

Perhaps this might help - http://europetrainsguide.com/Advice/Rail-Passes/Rail-passes-%E2%80%93-to-buy-or-not-to-buy.html

Edited by: annemariet

I'm not sure if its been suggested yet, but have you thought about travelling in a logical order rather than zig zagging across mainland Europe. I would imagine it would save you a lot of time in transit and you would probably get to see more as well.

What countries, do you suggest I spend the most time in?

We can't answer this question seriously without know what are your interests.

What countries, do you suggest I spend the most time in?

Toad suggested 3 countries.....

Sport ,

I dont mean to burst your bubble but 2 months is a short trip given that I've known people to visit London for a weekend and spend a month there .. dont think of countries or cities .. they wont mattter .. jot down 5 things you like to do or a thing you really want to see such as the Eiffel Tower etc .. for the like to do .. research the web for the best sites and then just use your spare time to join the dots .. not forgetting to stop to smell the grass .. seriously .. it is the people you will meet that you will remember .. the photos of yourself sitting here or there will be nice reminders.

For a 20 year old guy .. spend a bit more time in Spain especially Barceleona .. Spain is quite a large country and after 5 trips there the only towns I will say I have done is Jerez de la frontera and cadiz .. it is a less expensive country and it will give you time to organsie yourself before hitting the road .. Greece is pretty quiet by October so unless you expressly want to do the Partheon (it is special) its a LONG way out of the way for such a short trip .. ie you will spend 3 days on ferrys & train & buses just to get from Athens to Rome ..

If you just want to take lots of postcards .. take one of the package tours .. a lot more fun less stress and quite probably cheaper .. ( that will rankle a few people here) .. but its true ..

Thanks everyone for the advice - I really appreciate it. It's better for me to learn from other people's mistakes than make them myself.
Well I am doing a TopDeck tour of Greece which finishes on the 10th of Oct.
My interests include meeting new people, partying, natural sights and walking off the beaten track. I'd love to bungee jump in Switzerland too.
My to do list includes - Rome. Seville.
Switzerland. Prague. Germany. Amsterdam. And then the UK.
I understand that's a lot - but I want to try and fit in as much as possible.

Not only is it a lot. But they are all well out of the way from each other. Pick an area (France/Spain or Italy/Spain or Italy/Greece). And stick with that.

You have 7 things in your list and its a mixture of 4 cities and 3 countries. If you had 7 cities to visit in two months thatd be better but you wouldn't cover everything in switzerland/Germany/UK as well as getting to Rome/Prague/Adam and Seville.

Seriously - 2 or 3 countries would be all you need for that time frame.

but I want to try and fit in as much as possible
That's exactly what I did on my first backpacking trip, and indeed I did come home with a lot of pictures of every famous building in my guidebook.
However, my fondest memories of that trip were not seeing the Parthenon in Athens with my own eyes - to be honest it looked just like in the pictures (= impressive but only confirming my expectations and therefore not really swiping me off my feet) and after 15 minutes the horrible heat got the better of me so I left and spent the rest of the day in the shade) or exploring Pompeii on a day trip from Rome (by the time we'd finally reached the site after 3 hours, I had already lost most of my appetite), but rather the interesting people I met and a few places that I hadn't planned on visiting but ended up seeing because I missed a train or simply didn't have the energy to move on yet another day.

Build in some slack, to allow yourself a day off from sightseeing, to spend a day in a park, to talk to people, to get away from tourist hubs like Amsterdam or Prague - as if there's nothing else to see in NL or CZ! - and, consequently, to discover your very own "hidden gems".

Hi

Wow you have big plans ! Hope you have a great time !! Personally I would turn your trip upside down and start in the uk and work down but it sounds like you already have quite a few set plans that you need to work with, I have a few suggestions that may help:

Why not fly from Athens too Rome? www.easyjet.com have deals around euro 30, that way your not starting your eurail time with a lengthy journey,that from friends experiences isn't much fun, then make your way to Barcelona from Rome taking in some of the italian citys, on the way ,I would forget about venice though, as it would be a bit of a detour, an alternate to the train here may also be able to take a flight from Milan (Bergamo) to Barcelona with www.ryanair.com (El Prat is the major airport the others are regionals) . From Barcelona I would head to Madrid then down to Seville, from Seville I would probably fly to either Brussels or Amsterdam (again Ryanair do a service to charlesroi a regional airport for Brussels ) or try www.iberia.es for the major airports. I would take the first three to five weeks to do this leg of your tour, this is where I would stop running with the shedule as you will be right in the heart of europe , especially if you choose Brussels. This will allow you to do at least some of the places on your wish list the longest you would have to travel is 9 hours to Prague (this is ruling slovenia out) .

Going back to the shedule tho I would book your point of entry to the uk and also plan how your going to get around as your rail pass won't cover you here, also if your planning on travelling from London to Scotland I wouldn't rule out www.ba.com and www.flybmi.com as they fly from london heathrow and the increase in fare from the budget airlines can sometimes outweigh the costs of getting to the regional airports, having to buy refreshments etc...Also unless you book well in advance air fares are usually cheaper than train.

Budget once you've paid all your travelling expenses divide your remaining funds by the amount of days of your trip, I would probably then take off about 20 euros a day for when your in the cheaper countries Greece, Italy,Spain any eastern bloc countries you visit that way you'll have extra money for the more expensive countries and I wouldn't count on the uk being cheaper because you won't have to pay accom costs , its quite expensive here and plus it will be Christmas and New Year so you'll probably want a bit extra money .

Finally enjoy have fun, don't stick to a shedule too much if you arrive in a city you've dreamed of visiting for years to think actually I hate this place , you have your eurail pass just leave you never know what you might find in a place you've never heard of and only go to because its an hour away or because it had a funny name. When diaster strikes, don't panic deal with it, nothing can't be solved, if you do visit Seville the locals will think your crazy for visiting so late in the year and tell you to come back for the feria's or when its warm,

have a great time and hope this helps !!

So many places, so little time.

Congratulations you have posted the 100th post this week that fits the title above.

When I was younger I discovered the ‘so many women, so little time’ problem. They say that with age comes wisdom. I’m 65 now and hope I will discover the answer to that problem soon as the pace is beginning to tire me out.

Fortunately, for the travel equivalent, of so many places and so little time I discovered the answer some years ago. So read on.

Trying to see as MANY places as possible in a given period of time is not best use of travel time. Quantity does not equal quality and in travel, less is more. The way to ‘see as much as possible’ is to move less and spend more time IN places.

While it is understandable that someone wants to see as many places as they can, the trade off is seeing less of everything. Or in other words, you can see a little of a lot or a lot of a little. Theoretically, you could spend an hour in each place if all you wanted was to check places off a list but obviously that would be a waste of time. That’s an extreme but spending a day here and 2 days there is not much better. You still see very little and spend too high a proportion of your time going between A and B.

So what then is a reasonable amount of time to spend in a place, I hear you asking. Well you could use the rule of thumb known as the ‘Rule of 3’s’ to guide you. That says that you should never spend less than 3 full days/4 nights visiting a place unless it is just an overnight stop between A and B. That gives you a MINIMUM to shoot for. Depending on the place and your interests you may choose to spend longer. Most would agree for example that a week would be a minimum for Rome.

Consider that even using the Rule of 3’s will result in 25% of your time being lost to moving and only 75% of your time spent actually IN places seeing/doing things. Far better of course to get to that point in your travel life where you don’t consider moving at all and spend ALL your time other than your arrival and departure days IN the one place.

But that comes with age too. Slower is not necessarily a bad thing. Ask my wife.

A week in Amsterdam? BIG waste of time and one hellova lot of money!
Very expensive city.

If you're after a pot holiday you can do that cheaper anywhere in Holland *which is only part of the Netherlands.

If you stretch yourself so thin by "seeing" (only) and not experiencing the feel, pace, nice people (who can teach you a lot about different p.o.v.), you may never be back. The cost of travelling long distance, while not tasting Europe, and making yourself more vulnerable to theaves, by not paying arrention to your stuff and surroundings. That would almost kill the valuable lessins by just being a familiar face to locals at different places. blah blah...

Its the experience and simmering wisdom for the future you should be after. Not the score card.

Thanks travelinstyle and gawkabout - I've placed your comments into consideration and am planning a new itinerary; focusing less on 'checking things off' and more on the experience. I know what you mean - it's just that I am keen to try and do as much as I can. My transport's via train (Eurail). And in Amsterdam and the UK I have accommodation sorted.
My itinerary goes something like this..
Paris - a week
Greece - a tour for 10 days (booked)
Rome - week
Florence - 4 days
Milan - 4 days
Nice - 4 days
Barcelona - 6 days
Seville - 6 days
Madrid - 5 days
Have 3 days to travel across to Bern - 4 days
A week in Switzerland
Munich - 5 days
Prague - 5 days
Berlin - a week
Amsterdam - a week
Then I'm off to London for 10 days and around the UK until I fly home from Paris on the 10th of January.

Thats a whole lot better. There are still a a bit of distance between some destinations. Madrid to Bern for example. And even Nice to Barcelona. I would say for such an itinerary you need a combination of trains (for those shorter journeys) and planes (for longer journeys like Paris to Greece etc).

I would probably drop Madrid. And spend a bit more time in Tuscany or go to the Cinque Terre in the Italian Riveria.

s just that I am keen to try and do as much as I can. We all want to see and do as much as possible. Its just not physically possible. Especially when time is a constraint.