| Lonely Planet™ · Thorn Tree Forum · 2020 | ![]() |
Help Me Decide: Thailand, Nicaragua, Japan, Costa Rica, BaliInterest forums / The Long Haul - Living & Working Abroad | ||
Greetings all! I'm currently looking to escape the clutches of Washington, DC to pursue a photographic adventure world wide. I would love it if you could help me narrow down my list so I can engage in the finer details of travel research. I've currently identified five countries to look into; Japan, Thailand, Bali, Costa Rica, Nicaragua. I have different reasons for pursing all of them but would most likely enjoy them all equally. (according to what I know now) Japan- I've always wanted to go to Japan. I Love the food, the culture (excluding all that manga crap) and I've always wanted to photograph the city scapes. It also happens that I have a friend at an English school in Nagoya who might be able to hook me up with a job. Despite these attractions there are some obstacles. Japan is very expensive and I don't have much disposable income. It's also very cold and one of my main motivations to get out of DC is to escape all our lame winters. It's also in Nagoya which I'm not sure how cool that would be.. I kind of wanted to be in Osaka or Tokyo.. A plus for Japan however, is that it has some incredible snowboarding in close proximity to most cities (or so it appears). This could possibly make up for the cold. Thailand: Much warmer and cheaper than Japan. It has beautiful beaches and seemingly more options when it comes to teaching English. I'm also very into Muay Thai and would love to get some great training while I'm there. However, I'm not TEFL certified and as I've heard this can be a major issue. Costa Rica: went there last november and loved it. Beautiful country, super nice people, amazing weather and beaches. I could photograph that place forever. Plus I know a bit of spanish and I feel more confident knowing I've been there already. The only thing is, is that it was it was kind of expensive and I'm not sure how I would support myself. It would probably be tough to get teaching job and I would probably be stationed in some land locked part of the country. Nicaragua: I've been told it's a cheaper Costa Rica. I feel I might have more options for teaching and it would be less expensive. Maybe not quite as scenic and a bit less developed but i'm fine with that. Bali: always wanted to go. Seems super beautiful, great beaches, food etc. But I've heard its kind of pricey now and I'm not sure how I would support myself there either. I heard it's tough to get a teaching job there. Anyway I know there are some pretty versatile travelers here and I would love to absorb your collective knowledge. Even If you haven't been to all these places I would still love to hear from you. | ||
Abridged: this is longer than I thought. Anyone been to Japan, Thailand, Costa Rica, Nicaragua or Bali? I'm a broke ass artist with a college degree looking to spend 3 months to a year in one of these spots. Have you been to any of these places? I feel like teaching English is something i'd like to do to support myself, but I don't really have money to get certified. What do you guys think? I can live gritty as hell as long as the location is good. The post above really frames my situation better, but it's a bit long. Sometimes I get carried away. | 1 | |
I'm in Japan.
If you really want to support yourself teaching then getting certified makes sense. Can you not save up enough to do a course somewhere (like Thailand)? Also, I know I'm being picky here but Bali is not a country. | 2 | |
I would agree with PTF that getting some training is a pretty good idea. It is only fair to the students sitting in your classroom that you have some idea about how to teach English and deliver the skills to them for which they are usually paying a nice chunk of change. You wrote, for Thailand: To obtain legal working papers as an English teacher in Thailand you will need a good 100+ hour TEFL certification. Without it, yes, it will be a major issue as you won't be able to get the visa you need to stay in the country. You also wrote: Shoot for a year, most schools have grown weary of people wanting to teach a short time just to fill their wallet and move on. They would like someone who might provide some consistency and yes, perhaps even care about the quality of instruction they deliver rather than just their next destination. Uh . . . just my opinion. | 3 | |
Yes I know bali is not a country... And let me be clear, I am a photographer, NOT a teacher. If I had the money I wouldn't teach. I would simply live over there. But I have no intention on making a mockery of the profession. I actually think it's something I might be pretty good at. I like kids, I'm very patient, and I like to explain things. I'm also considerably more knowledgeable in regards to writing than the average college grad. I think teaching would be an interesting challenge that would probably be pretty enjoyable. Certification seems more and more like a realistic option.. I just REALLY don't want to pay for it. I'm going to be dropping 1200 US on a camera soon, which is going to set me back. Then dropping another 1200 on classes makes it even harder. Especially considering I only have a little over 4 grand saved up right now... A year seems pretty tough.. I keep hearing conflicting story's as well. Lonely Planet always seems to have this very PC hyper sensitive somewhat negative vibe (not about anyone in particular). While others will tell me (often crudely) that they are just doing there thing over there enjoying life. I have yet to hear anyone say a year is mandatory. I'll take "shoot for" as it is. But then again wtf do i know. I just really hope that isn't my only option. I very much appreciate the feed back. though. Keep the thoughts coming! | 4 | |
A lot of places will want you to commit for a year. Of course there's nothing to stop you committing for a year and then quitting but you're not likely to find much support for that on here. One thing to keep in mind is that this branch is for people who are in it for the long haul. Many of us have been working overseas for years so we tend to be a bunch of people that aren't really keen on the 'blow in for a few months, do an ok job, blow out again leaving a bad taste in the mouths of those who employed us' crowd. And I think that is especially true when it comes to teaching. this very PC hyper sensitive somewhat negative vibe That's because we are the ones who stick around and feel the effects of the bad press gained by those who don't do what they've said they will. We're also more likely to be the ones who have locals as friends and see things from their point of view. There are plenty of jobs that don't require long term commitment. eg working a ski season (probably not open to you since you're American), bar jobs etc. There are also short term English teaching jobs but I'm not sure how much chance you'll have of getting them to sponsor you for a visa. Of course if you are happy to work illegally then that won't be a big issue for you (but not something you'd be likely to have much luck with in Japan) but it is something you need to take into account. I am a photographer, NOT a teacher. If I had the money I wouldn't teach. Well I'd say if you can't support yourself with photography then you are just a person with a hobby. If I had the money I might decide not to teach either but since that isn't an option I teach and I'm a teacher. This is more of the negative stuff that you don't want to hear but it sounds to me like you are looking for an easy way out. You don't want to invest any money into preparing to teach but you expect to be able to support yourself and your hobby. I'm also considerably more knowledgeable in regards to writing than the average college grad. This is possibly (scarily) true but despite that you still don't realise that "story's" is not the word you were looking for in the above post. | 5 | |
You nailed me on the stories part. No work tomorrow so I'm a few drinks in haha! Pretty sure If I get paid to do my "art" on a regular basis it's more than a hobby. Please try not to get personal as it just comes off bitter. What I do is way more competitive than teaching and making a living on it in the states is hard enough as it is, especially when you're young. And suppose I am looking for the easy way out, can you blame me? I am willing to throw myself into the chaos of a new country. Sacrifice NUMEROUS short term pleasures for the sake of travel and I am ready to accept the fact that this won't be just a vacation, but serious work as well. Looking for the easiest way to survive in another country seems to be the most practical option. Why would I look for a difficult one? However, I don't want to come across as a slacker with a "yeah i'll just get in there , teach english or whatever, get paid and leave" type attitude. And I do understand your point of drifting douche bags watering down your profession. I hope not to be grouped into that category. Is it possible to accept that someone will teach for the "job" and not for the "love" and still ably perform? I have every intention on doing the best that I can. I'm just saying if I don't have to get TEFL certified than I won't. If I don't have to sign a year contract than I won't. And as I said,I have no intention on being a making a career as a teacher. I appreciate the reality check, but make sure that's what you're giving me. I just don't want to have to worry about whether this advice is doused in idealism. I have heard conflicting stories from other sources. If they are wrong, inform me rather than judge me. Edited by: StrifeAnderson | 6 | |
ESL is an increasingly competitive field. Back in the day, any foreigners could rock up to an English school in Country X, teach for a month or two for cash in hand. No contracts, no qualification, easy-peasy. This in not the case anymore. There are fewer and fewer countries that will hire teachers without a degree or TEFL cert. Work visas tend to be expensive, so schools will ask for a minimum of a 6 month commitment. But countries like Costa Rica where teaching is still for fuelling a lifestyle, it takes a fair bit of time to find a job. Even when you do, it's likely an hour here or an hour there, Often not enough to pay for the transport between jobs. Nicaragua is the second poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. The vast majority of jobs are purely volunteer and the few paid jobs are taken by experienced, qualified teachers who sign contracts. Thailand changed it's visa laws some time ago to get rid of the illegal workers who would just do a border run every once and a while. As i said, the old days are gone. You are far more likely to find work in a hostel or bar. Hostel work will not pay much, but they usually allow you to stay for free (maybe with a small stipend). I drove a mini-van to the bus stop in Australia to pick up tourists. They gave me free accommodation, dinner at the hostel restaurant and $20/day. Many people do this kind of "work" in Mexico as well. But you are subject to the visa restrictions as clearly no one will sponsor a work visa for this. | 7 | |
I'm not trying to be 'personal' about your hobby. I'm just trying to point out that unless that is what you are using to support yourself then it seems a bit pointless to insist on identifying yourself as a photographer. The world is full of people who have a passion for something that doesn't pay the bills. My boss (as an example) makes quite a nice little income as a musician but that is nowhere near enough to live on in Japan so he's a teacher. You nailed me on the stories part. No work tomorrow so I'm a few drinks in haha! Don't worry, it was a bit mean to point it out. We all make spelling/grammar mistakes at times - just best not to do it in a post when you are talking about how great your writing skills are. And for what it's worth your writing skills do actually seem quite good. Certainly compared to many of the people who post here. What I do is way more competitive than teaching and making a living on it in the states is hard enough as it is, especially when you're young. I don't disagree with this for a minute. I'm not in anyway implying that you aren't a talented photographer (or that you are, how would I know) and at least you haven't come on here posting that you plan to travel using photography to support yourself (we get that post at least a couple of times a year). But it just isn't relevant to what you are trying to do. I know you'll probably write this off as old fogey negativity but the sad reality is that plenty of talented, passionate people don't manage to make a living from their skills. That's life. You want to travel. Great. You want to support yourself while you do it. Excellent. So now you have to figure out a way to make that happen. By all means just head of to Thailand or Bali or whatever and see what happens. You may well be a person for whom it all works out (and they do still exist). On the other hand you might be one of those who runs out of money in 2 months and heads home (plenty of them exist too). I'll completely admit that the advice on this forum will tend to run to the more conservative end of the spectrum. Listen to it, listen to your other sources, decide what is right for you. And suppose I am looking for the easy way out, can you blame me? I am willing to throw myself into the chaos of a new country. Sacrifice NUMEROUS short term pleasures for the sake of travel and I am ready to accept the fact that this won't be just a vacation, but serious work as well. Looking for the easiest way to survive in another country seems to be the most practical option. Why would I look for a difficult one? Because sometimes the more difficult one is the better option. I first worked overseas with no real qualifications (I had a bachelors but wasn't using it). That was fine but I quickly realised that if I wanted to make a lifestyle out of living overseas I needed a better thought out plan. I gave up a lot to put my plan into place. Two years back in Australia studying full time. But it was worth it. That was me though. This is you. It really depends what you want. I've just reread your OP and decided actually I'm not clear. What do you want? Are you just looking to have a bit of a short overseas adventure. A few months spent away from the drag of your current life? If so then I think you're right, no point in doing any additional training. Head overseas, take what comes your way. Work in a bar, teach a little English under the table, swap labour for free accommodation in a hostel. If you want to do this for a few years (or even a full year) though AND have cash for things like snow boarding or photography equipment then you really need to land the better paying jobs and what we're saying is that to do that you'll probably need some training and a willingness to commit for more than a few months. However, I don't want to come across as a slacker with a "yeah i'll just get in there , teach english or whatever, get paid and leave" type attitude. And I do understand your point of drifting douche bags watering down your profession. You don't really come across this way. I was more talking about the kind of people who are giving advice like 'don't worry, you don't need qualifications.' Also drifting douche bags don't water down my profession, I'm not an English teacher so it doesn't effect me personally (or is it affect? see this why I'm not an English teacher), I was just trying to explain the point of view from which much advice on this board comes. Is it possible to accept that someone will teach for the "job" and not for the "love" and still ably perform? Absolutely. I make no bones whatsoever about the fact that I got into the teaching profession based on two things:
I'm a good teacher. I enjoy it. I take it seriously but I don't do it for love. I'm just saying if I don't have to get TEFL certified than I won't. If I don't have to sign a year contract than I won't. And what we're saying is that your chances of a decent job will be much higher if you do those things. As I said earlier it really depends on what you want out of this. I know plenty of unqualified people in China (well I used to, even there it is getting harder to find jobs) who basically work for beer money. They get accommodation, easy access to easy women, work 15 hours a week and are good with that. But they don't want to buy $1000 cameras or expect to go snow boarding. One thing in your favour is that you have the sense to listen to ideas you disagree with and not get all abusive. You might be surprised at how few people can do that. Rereading your initial post it is possible we've got the wrong end of the stick. If all you want is a few short months in each place (or in one of the places) and you don't need to do more than earn enough to live on then I think you might be right that there's no point in shelling out for further training. I guess I got thrown by the snow boarding thing and was assuming that you wanted to earn enough for a pretty good lifestyle. Also I'm writing from the Japanese point of view so I'm at the expensive end of your considered countries. Good luck with your plans. If you do make it to Tokyo let me know and I'll buy you a beer (at expensive Tokyo prices!) to make up for all the negativity! | 8 | |
StrifeAnderson wrote: I am not sure that I agree, but the point is made above that most of us on this specific forum have been abroad for many years and quite a few of us for 20+ years. As a result we have seen many people crash and burn and in the process burn the people who stay behind: their former students, other expatriates, other teachers, etc. So . . . that means often our advice is strongly tempered with reality rather than just fantasy. Most of us know how to survive and thrive in other cultures and - in my opinion anyway - it is a fine art all its own. One that most of us have purposefully cultivated. PTF wrote: That is a good point in favor of StrifeAnderson and is sadly true for some visitors on this board. Many people seek advice on this board, but when the advice is contrary to what they want to hear, they go ballistic. Exactly the type of person who will likely NOT succeed abroad where many things work in ways that they not might have expected or agreed with. The more someone shows some adaptability in their thinking, the more likely they are to succeed abroad. Adaptability doesn't mean fantasizing - it means adjusting to reality. People do often assume that many of us are "negative" - but I find the majority of people on this board are probably the most positive people you will ever meet. People who are more than willing to help people start out on a new life of their own making. That is great! All that said, I am a HUGE believer that you create your own reality. And if you head out with good intentions, a positive attitude about life and the world in general, a nice dose of reality, a good game plan and some real flexibility about how it all sorts out - you can achieve just about anything. So . . . go get 'em! PS: I apologize for the philosophical babbling . . . | 9 | |
Np. Doesn't really seem like babbling to me. I just want to be honest about my situation. I don't want come on and bs a bunch of people so i get myself into a bs situation. So considering my situation, what would you guys say the baseline teaching requirement for lets say.some place like Thailand? It was mentioned earlier, you need to have some form of TEFL certification to get a work visa. I was originally under the impression that you didn't HAVE to have one, you just had to be cool with a pay cut; up to 1/3 of 1/4. I lived like I was in a was in 3rd world country for most college and when I was in Vietnam, I ate street food and slept on roll out matt on the floor. I figured people who were complaining about the pay cut were just used to their western lifestyle. And I really saw the certification as having nothing to do with with teaching. It seemed like it was just an accreditation to get paid more. I figured if i could get by on less money than most people then why bother with it. So here I am, a simple man with simple dreams. I don't need much, just a foot in the door really. What would you guys say is the minimum requirement and how effective is it in getting a job? Would this requirement work in all the countries I have listed? Is it definitely worth it? | 10 | |
Oh yeah, are there any official price tags on these certifications? It seems suspiciously difficult to track down what the costs are. I keep hearing 1,000-2,500. | 11 | |
Every country is different. Indonesia and Thailand, for example, require a good 100-120 hour TEFL certification. That is a requirement for obtaining your working papers - not an option. Technically even China requires a TEFL cert - but schools have ways of getting around the requirement. You need to inquire about specific requirements for specific countries to get an accurate answer. Many times, when an employer requires a TEFL cert, it is because it is legally required, not necessarily because they want you to have one.
Prices are specific to countries, even locations and by type of program. So, yes, you will see wide variation in prices. It is not suspicious, it just depends on where and sometimes even when. CELTA requires a hefty royalty payment back from the franchisee, so their prices will almost always be highest. Some countries like Thailand are known for lower prices due to the high level of competition for such programs in the country (due to the large demand as a certification is required by the MOE for your teaching license). Take a CELTA in London, you'll be paying on the high end of what you suggested or even more. Take a generic TEFL course in Krabi, Thailand and you'll be paying on the low end.
It has a LOT to do with teaching. Even the most basic of TEFL training programs will have some pretty specific and important ideas about teaching methodology that will make a huge difference in the quality of what you deliver to your students. Untrained teachers often think TEFL is about them talking to the students and telling them about English, when - in fact - it needs to be about the students learning to talk and the less a teacher talks, usually the better. With a trained teacher, there is a very big difference in method and in results - in my opinion and experience. | 12 | |
I would go to Nicaragua or Indonesia. Not Bali, too expensive and touristy. Go to Java instead. An island also in Indonesia. I think it should be possible to get an English teaching job there. If you live like a local you could make your 4000 dollars last a year for sure, without working. However you'd have to live like a local... | 13 | |
Where did he say $4,000? Did i miss something? Over a year that's $350/month. Half of that would go to an apartment and basic bills (no internet as he's "living local") That leaves $6/day. Assuming he eats for $1/meal, that leaves $3/day for ALL other expenses and emergencies. Possible? Perhaps. But it would be nothing more than sustaining life. Locals go to work/school, go home and watch tv. OP would pretty much have to stay at home and stare at the wall (can't afford cable or internet remember) Live like a local. That's funny. So he should bring all his family members to live in his house until they are married. Even then, the newlyweds will likely live with them to cut down on costs. He should never eat out or explore the area. He should fill his time with "watching tv" which seems to be the national sport. He should never take a taxi. He should have a diet mainly consisting of rice. Sadly, as he won't speak Bahasa or Indonesian or Malay or any other regional language it'll be hard to bargain. And just looking like a foreigner automatically means higher prices. Considering he plans on selling pictures and articles, he'd need internet thus blowing the budget and the whole "living local" thing. | 14 | |
Obviously I'm not going to be living exactly like a local. The goal is to stack up some money, head over to another country, find a job and just try to use that plus my savings to support myself. The photography thing has to do with beefing up my journalistic portfolio, and pure pleasure. It has nothing to do with making money while abroad. Figuring out if the pictures are worth anything will be decided upon when (if) I get back. The plan would be to live considerably better than most locals (pertaining to the standard set above), yet worse than most tourists. The average american stays on a resort and doesn't even leave the property. That is obviously out of the question. I'm thinking like tiny one bedroom with AC and internet connection. That is pretty much the extent of my luxury. I also would be eating out but not at nice restaurants. I | 15 | |
zzark, what do you think the price difference would be as far as getting certified in the states versus Thailand? | 16 | |
StrifeAnderson wrote: Probably close to a thousand dollars, but I don't really know. There are some other issues at hand more important than price though. In my opinion is usually best to take such a course in the country where you first intend to teach. For lots of reasons. First some practical aspects. It gives you an opportunity to acclimate to the culture. You can job hunt while you are in school. A good TEFL school will often have people coming by looking for teachers to hire. Good schools will also know the best places to find work and even where NOT to work - the lousy employers that you should avoid (just as important!). These are things the newbie just off the plane won't know. There is another important issue and that is doing your observed teaching practice with the population that you will first teach. I've taught full time in four countries and a bit in a couple others - and every country has some idiosyncratic things that it will be difficult for the first time teacher to deal with. I am a reasonably well trained teacher, but it still takes me a bit of time to get up to speed in each country. Pronunciation issues, grammar issues, L1 interfering with L2, even behavioral issues. Things that a new teacher can get a handle on while they are in training - rather than trying to solve when actually on their first job. These are all issues a good TEFL school will address and you will, while doing your observed teaching practice, get an opportunity to work on them while someone with lots of experience observes you and gives you some guidance after the class. All that just to say - you will be a far better prepared teacher your first day on the job, if you have a bit of experience in that country, with those students and those specific language issues. Just my opinion. And - sorry - that was not really what you asked! I am just avoiding some work right now and, well, you know. | 17 | |
If the goal is to spend 3 months or so traveling in a country to get increase your photo portfolio you will quickly find that having a job will strictly limit the time that you have to pursue photo opportunities. You will be working. You will get up every morning, shower, eat breakfast and go to work. You will have some time off, perhaps weekends and holidays, to do laundry, shopping etc. Living overseas means just that. It isn't the same as traveling. You can put up with a couple of nights in a sleeping bag on the floor and street food for traveling but most people aren't willing to do this for long once they settle on a place. Personally, I think if your goal is to do more for your photography career, find a couple of jobs in the US, make as much money as you possibly can and then take off for two months traveling throughout one of these countries and get your photos and see what happens. ESL teachers who aren't committed to making this a career rarely make enough money to use this to move to the next location and in many cases, don't make much more than survival or funding their trip home overland. Where people make money is getting the training, getting the long term experience, making the commitment to stay for a year or more likely two years, getting the higher paid jobs teaching at the university, etc. You won't get there without some trade off and that trade off will be less time to do your photography. If your ESL goals are not long term, then the idea of teaching makes little sense. IF they are long term, then you may find that your photography time gets pinched by the time teaching. If you think that you potentially have what it takes to make a career in photography, then ESL training for the short time makes little sense. If you think that ESL is a long term option and photography will be a way to get some fulfillment and to supplement your income long term, then do it right - get the ESL training and make the one year commitments. I suspect that you will discover that the photo opportunities living someplace more than 3 months will be very different. Three months barely lets you scratch the surface of a country and certainly doesn't really let you understand a country. Have you talked or corresponded with other people who are making a career with photography? You might want to do this to get some ideas. Try Losang who hangs on the NEAsia branch. Check out his website: Land of Snows and his blog: Life on the Tibetan Plateau Ruth | 18 | |
Anyone been to Japan, Thailand, Costa Rica, Nicaragua or Bali? I've been to all of these places. As you have noted, each has their pros and cons. Japan is the most expensive, but IMHO, the most incredible. If you are a photographer, this is the place for you. Amazing. I am not up on the teaching end anymore, as I decided not to go that route, but I do have friends who teach there. As with everywhere, you have to be careful with scams. China seems the worst place for that right now. Another option is S. Korea. Lots of demand there. Cheaper than Japan, but still has a great Asian feel to it. Something that is disappearing in many other Asian countries.... Nicaragua was OK...but I would not want to live there. Bali is OK, but IMHO, best as a vacation spot. But it is for sure really beautiful. I would think getting a teaching job there would be tough. But you can find cheap places to rent. CR is beautiful, but IMHO, too expensive for what you get. And too many Americans and Canadians. I am an American. Thailand is quite cheap and has lots of options for teaching. I live there now. They have a new initiative to make English their second language. It hasn't kicked off yet, but it's in the press...which means a huge demand for English teachers. Lots of schools here to get your certificate. And as a single guy, a great place to be... Tough choice! All are great except Nicaragua. You should also research the visa issues. That could come into play for sure...I know here in Thailand, it's getting harder and harder all the time....but you can for sure get a student visa easily. And some of the schools are right next to the beach! | 19 | |
So are you looking for adventure or a paying job? Seems like you're not much into luxury and just want the experience, so why not try volunteering - wwoof, helpx, whatever - as long as you get room and board. If people are paying to learn English (and you're getting paid to teach them), they'll expect some kind of certification. But if you're volunteering, it's not as though you're ripping them off by not being certified. You're more literate than lots of people on this forum, and you seem to have the right attitude. BTW I was in Nicaragua 20 years ago ... absolutely beautiful! | 20 | |