citizenship, passport, expat

Which citizenship(s) do you have, and which one(s) would you like to acquire, and why?

Just hoping to get a discussion going on the pros and cons of being a citizen / passport holder of various countries.

OK, so for example...

I have US citizenship. No complaints, but I always thought it'd be cool to have multiple citizenship, like Jason Bourne, etc.

I don't speak any other languages fluently, so I wouldn't want to be a citizen of a non-English-speaking country. But I think it'd be cool to have UK or Irish citizenship, as that would give access to most of Europe. Ditto for Australia or NZ citizenship (giving access to both of those countries).

It might also be nice to travel on a "non-political" passport such as Irish or NZ... don't know if it would really make any difference anywhere I'd go, but it seems like it might. Any thoughts?

Also, what about national health insurance, other social benefits, laws, freedoms, taxes, etc...
Any thoughts on which countries have pros or cons in these areas?

I would love to hold dual nationalty with Monaco or Lichtenstein.

I'm a UK citizen and I think I'd like dual nationality with Bhutan, Australia, New Zealand or Fiji, just because I'd love to spend a lot more time in these countries. Assuming that I ever got the chance, I'd have to do more research into the rights and obligations it would involve, though.

I wouldn't want a passport that would make me eligible for compulsory military service. For this reason I've never pursued my theoretical right to Israeli citizenship.

Have British but would love an English passport.

I'm happy with what I have and don't feel a need to have anything else . . . (in terms of passport anyway!)

I hold both a Australian and United Kingdom passport. Very handy indeed!

I would love to hold a Russian passport for the obvious reasons for easy access to the central asian region as a whole.

I can speak fluent German and Finnish and can read Hebrew.

Happy Days!

Interesting.

Venona - why those two countries in particular, and not, say, Switzerland, Andorra, etc.?

Nerina - good point. What are some other pros and cons of Israeli citizenship? And what ages does compulsory military service apply to? I imagine it wouldn't apply to anyone over 30 years old, or 40, etc.

workingNOMAD - I'm guessing it's just a matter of time...

zzark - cool

intravol - how did you manage to get both Aussie and UK, if I may ask? I hear this is pretty common in Australia and NZ... any idea what percentage of citizens of these two countries are dual nationals w/ UK, Ireland, Italy, etc.?

@peasbeuponyou - My mother was born in the United Kingdom thus being illegible to hold both. It is nice to have freedom to both work and live in a massive region (New Zealand, UK and the EU). Not sure about the percentage but I know it is common to see Aussies with dual nationality ... We are convicts after all!

Lucky you!

Say, not that you'd need to, but just curious... if you wanted NZ citizenship, or citizenship in another EU country, could you use your Aussie or UK passport to become a permanent resident of NZ or, oh I don't know, Sweden, for example, and then be eligible for citizenship after living there the requisite number of years?

I've got what I believe to be one of the most useful passports in the world (UK) but would like to have another non-European passport to allow easy travel to say OZ/NZ but I wouldn't say its essential to have that passport as you can get by with visa's etc (although its easier if you are given a passport of course, lol).

A lot of countries don't allow dual citizenship though so if it came to living in another country and asking me to give up my passport for theirs I don't think there would be a country I would do that for - mostly for the (apparent) safety and security provided for me in old age. I know others have better services but I'd rather be old and sick in a country I can complain about justifiably! :)

If you could collect them from just living in the country for X number of years and build up a collection I'd probably try to pick one for Asia / S America and Australia so I could travel among the lot throughout my life.

Liechtenstein and Monegasque passports give tremendous tax advantages that no other passport can match. I am not so sure about Andorra and Switzerland,
Liechtenstein passport is basically an "enhanced" Swiss passport but with out all the taxation issues. Liechtenstein consular services are done by the Swiss anyhow. Had Paul Hogan held such a passport, he would not have lost any sleep over his tax issues vis-a-vis Australia!

peasbeuponyou - I once met an Israeli who told me you aren't required to do military service once you're over 27. I'd have to check that, though.

No tax sounds good, but I guess someone has to pay for all the essential services. Does VAT cover it all in Monaco?

and you need to have the sort of money where tax becomes an issue - wouldn't bother me as don't have that much to pay anyway :)

looseleaf - actually, I think most countries that you'd want to be a citizen of (advanced, progressive, etc.) allow dual citizenship today. The only exceptions being Norway, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Spain... I think that's it for Western Europe, for example - all the rest allow dual, as do the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and most Latin American and Caribbean countries. Asian and Muslim countries generally don't allow it.

Venona - Interesting about Liechtenstein - I didn't know some of that. But I heard that it's virtually impossible to become a citizen of that country. Monaco is possible, but difficult. Anyway, isn't residence just as good as far as taxes go?

Interesting also about Paul Hogan... if I understand his situation correctly, he made a lot of money w/ his Crocodile Dundee films in the US (i.e., while being non-resident in Australia), but Australia still wanted a big cut in taxes anyway? That's too bad. Does he still only have Australian citizenship?

nerina - I think Monaco, like Nevada in the US, relies heavily on revenue from its casino(s), and probably also property taxes, VAT, etc. The movie "Priceless" was filmed there - fun movie!

2peasbeuponyou - I don't need NZ citizenship to live or work there as there is some sort of immigration agreement between the two countries but I can't recall the correct term. As for your example Sweden, if I had been living there for a number of years there really would be no point to seek citizenship because the UK passport is a EU passport. There would be no point in gaining access to another EU passport as the rights within the region are the same - although there are some advantages to that one with other Asian countries. I believe Swedes can enter places like Vietnam visa-free for a set amount of time. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm not sure whether you can hold 3 passports/3citizenships at a time?

@nerina - I have a close friend who hold an Israeli Passport but also hold a Australian one too. He is not required to undertake Army Service. He returns to Israel numerous times per year and he only enters on his Australian, so they are none the wiser I guess?

@Venona - Well Paul Hogan has had some issues but the ATO let him leave the country. Tax debt or not, I doubt you'll see him return to our shores.

Also, I would love to hold a passport for a country with tax advantages. I get slaughtered when I conduct my share trading.

1. Prob'ly cause if she had those passports, maybe she could aford to live there.

If wishes were horses.

Or as Don Merideth, NFL announcer said,
"If IF and BUT were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas."

Having an Australian passport doesnt open doors automatically in NZ. An example is student loans-- now you have to reside for 2 years before being ellligible to apply for one.

intravol - There's no problem with holding 3 or more passports - many people do. It seems that countries either allow dual/multiple citizenship, or not at all. So as long as all the countries you're a citizen of don't forbid you from having another citizenship, then it's fine.

How come you get slaughtered on share trading? Is it because you're resident in the UK? All you have to do is become a non-resident and you would avoid that, right? (Whereas an American, for example, couldn't, because Americans are taxed based on their citizenship, regardless of residence.)

Would love to have an EU passport - so i could live and work in Europe.

As for Germany, German nationality law allows dual nationality under certain, well defined circumstances; for example, a German citizen is allowed to retain his German citizenship if he or she takes out the citizenship of another EU member state (if the that member state's nationality law allows that); another example, if a child is born to a German parent in a country which automatically confers its citizenship to any baby born on its territory ( USA, Canada).

As for Paul Hogan, the issue vis-a-vis Australia was his fiscal domicile when at that time. Apparently he was ill advised by his accountants. He could take out US citizenship, but taxation-wise that would put him in a worse situation as the USA taxes on the basis of citizenship regardless of fiscal domicile. No wonder many USers seek a second passport for expatriation purposes. Countries such ad Dominica and St. Kitts offer economic citizenship programmes for money or real-estate investment, but ex-patriation in the USA is a ten years process which requires you to pay taxes ten years after ex-patriation. Australians don't have that issue.

And yes, it is impractical even to cotemplate obtaining the citizenship of Monaco or Liechtenstein or any other micro-nation for tax purposes. unless your name is Mr.Gates or Mr. Abramovich :-)!

Most of the dual national that I know are either Australian, New-Zealanders, or Canadians who hold British, Irish, Italian, or Greek passports ( very few Maltese, Cypriot an Serbian) Evey fifth Australian is a dual national!

Regarding Australians and New Zealanders, I know they are allowed to live and work in the other country, but would their time in the other country be considered permanent residency, so that after 2 or 3 years they could apply for the other citizenship? I know there probably isn't much benefit in doing so, but then again, laws change, so...

Same question for EU countries - if you're a citizen of one, and move to another, are you automatically considered a permanent resident, and able to apply for citizenship after staying the required number of years (typically 3)?

Speaking for NZ, you can apply for citizenship but need to reside the same length of time as other migrants. .*Been present in New Zealand;

My children hold Australian passports only even though they would have been entitled to NZ citizenship if their births had been registered in NZ within 2 years of turning the age of majority. Both decided not to so are Australian citizens and NZ permanent residents. For both countries, they had to live a total of 104 weeks to be entitled to any benefits residents are entitled to. My brother and his family live in Australia and hold dual NZ and Australian citizenship mainly to make it easier on reaching retirement age. This goes back over 20 years so rules applied then look like they've changed.

I've got an Australian passport and I find it a fairly handy document.

If I could have another passport I'd love an EU one of some variety as it would open up more possibilities work wise. But, having said that, it isn't a huge deal since travel in Europe is easy on an Australian passport and if I really wanted to work in Europe chances are I could manage to find a job that would sponsor me.

ex-patriation in the USA is a ten years process which requires you to pay taxes ten years after ex-patriation

just wondering, has this law ever been challenged in international court? Seems like the US would have no jurisdiction to collect taxes from a citizen of another country, if they no longer lived in or had investments in the US

The Clinton Administration introduced this legislation in order to discourage would be ex-patsfor tax purposes. The law stipulates that one is libable for paying tax to the IRS ten years AFTER a Certificate of Loss of US Nationality hadbeen issued!

Moreover, the US, EU and Canada have been pressuring any goverment that has an Economic Citizenship Programme. They have shut down Gramanda's, Belize's, Panama's, and it is just a matter of time before the Commonwealth of Dominica and St, Kitts & Navis wrap up their programmes. Canada now requires visa from Dominica passport holders, and the UK is considering following the Canadian example. A real estate agent in London has told me that the Russian mafia has managed to obtain Dominica citizenship. So, people who invested a lot of money in these programmes will eventually have their citizenship revoked. It has become a big issue in Dominica and there allegations on corruption among members of the cabinet,

And no, no one as far as I know have ever challenged the US vindictive law.
This is a unique American issue because the USA taxes on the basis of nationality rather than fiscal domicile.
Australian, Canadian, Brits and other Europeans don't have that issue as their tax is collected on the basis of their fiscal domicile.

This is a unique American issue because the USA taxes on the basis of nationality rather than >fiscal domicile.

Well . . . yes and no.

US citizens living abroad are able to exclude/exempt the first US$91,400. (for tax year 2009)

IRS Publication 54 ( http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf ) spells out that IF your TAX home is a foreign country in which you are resident, you may exclude/exempt that first $90k. For must of us on this board, that probably means we won't owe any taxes to the US. In other words, if you are good citizen in the country in which you are residing AND pay taxes there for any work that you do - no problem for the first $90k. US citizens DO have to file to claim the exemption, but any halfway decent accountant can do it for you rather inexpensively and/or it is easily enough done by the individual concerned.

It is really only US citizens who are trying to stay under the radar everywhere and not paying taxes anywhere who are likely to have a problem.

Disclaimer: I am not a tax expert and I have paraphrased the qualification from IRS Pub 54.

Australian, Canadian, Brits and other Europeans don't have that issue as their tax is collected on the basis of their fiscal domicile.

I'm certainly not a tax expert either but the laws have changed this financial year for Australians. I've always claimed Australian residency and not paid tax on money earned overseas. This allowed me to claim the tax free thresh hold on money I earned (rental income) within Australia. Now if I want to maintain my residency I have to declare income earned overseas and pay the difference between the tax I've paid and what I would have paid if I'd earned that money in Australia.

Strangely enough I've suddenly decided I'm not a resident after all.

Australian, Canadian, Brits and other Europeans don't have that issue as their tax is collected on the basis of their fiscal domicile.

My understanding is that Canadians have significant difficulties too - especially if they wish to use their national health care when they return "home". But I will leave it to a Canadian to explain those issues.

Don't confuse residency and fiscal domicile!
You are right, Taxation-wise, an Australian citizen is liable for any income generated inside the juridiction, but if you hold an off-shore company that is registered in say Panama, or Antigua, you don't have to pay tax if you hold an Australian passport but lives in a yet another country. It is call the Five Flage Structure.

For example:

1 You hold an Australian passport.
2 You company is registered in Panama
3 You live in the Barbados on your Australian passport
4 You bank in Switzerland
5 You spend time in Toronto and London where you rent a flat.

This structure is good for countries that tax on the basis of finacial domice.

An American citizen would have to find a second passport because he or she are taxed on the basis of their citizenship.

For example:

1 You hold an Italian passport (based on an Italian born grandfather)
2 You leave the USA and rent a property in the Canary Islands ( Italian is an EU passporty)
3 You dive; that is, you simply don't renew your US passport (no need to give up US citizenship)
4 You register your company in Panama
5.You bank in Liechtenstein
6. You spend time in London, Berlin, Nassau
6

, if I had been living there for a number of years there really would be no point to seek citizenship because the UK passport is a EU passport. There would be no point in gaining access to another EU passport as the rights within the region are the same -
---------------------------------

thats not quite correct. there are advantages in holding the citizenship of the EU country you reside in.

as for myself i hold serbian, slovenian and finnish citizenship. the serbian citizenship entitles me to enter russia without visa. finnish one entitles me to go to some countries for which others need a visa. etc..so im more or less covered. dont need or want any other kind of citizenship.

venona, most serbs hold dual citizenship either with serbia, bosnia or croatia.

I have a random question -- is it generally a problem to enter one country on one passport and another on a different one?

The last time I went to Europe I entered on my UK passport, but when I returned to the US (actually Toronto, but they did the US immigration stuff there, before the onward flight to New York), they took my passport for further evaluation and stuck me in a room with a bunch of other "problem" people (including one poor family whose father had the same name as someone on the terrorist watch list and had to go through this every single time they flew).

The officers were jerks about the whole thing and wouldn't tell me why they were doing it, so I don't know if it had anything to do with the passports or not. Anyone else have experience with this kind of thing?

Only my opinion, but I think officials these days are a bit more interested in if you left the last country legally. If there is no stamp of your exit anywhere in your passport, they are probably wondering where you came from and if you left there properly. Particularly if you are arriving from a third country.

This might not seem like a big deal but if - for example - you were ejected/deported from the last country, it might be nice to know that and why. Of if you overstayed your visa there by 5-10 years, or . . .

I came across this thread while I was doing search on travel.. This is very interesting topic. I have to say that I have been very fortunate to have 4 citizenships. I have 4 passport that I travel with all the time and fortunately I didn't have to get naturalized for any of them.

I was Born in the USA so I have a US Passport since I am a natural born US Citizen.

My father is a British so I have a British Passport by decent since birth.

My Mother was born in Australia but she was born to a Canadian Father and Australian mother so she acquired both Canadian and Australian Citizenship since birth. So that Makes me a Canadian and Australian Citizen as well since birth..

My parents have lived in England, Australia and Canada and USA over the past 30 years and my mother became a British citizen because she got it through marriage with my father.. My father became a Canadian and an Australian Citizen through marriage as well respectively when they lived in Canada and Australia.. I have lived in all 4 countries along with my other siblings who are also citizens of 4 countries. My Parents had a good plan for us so I am grateful for that.. At the time myself and my siblings were born they were working in USA (TN Visa as Canadian Citizens) and gave birth to us in USA so we are all natural born US citizens and we were Canadian Citizens right away when they took us back to Canada.. For British and Australian they applied for us by registering us as British and Australian Citizens by decent.

I have traveled all over using all 4 passports and I can tell you it feels absolutely amazing being able to go and live and work or own businesses anywhere in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and All over Europe (EEA). I use the passport to enter and leave the country I am going and leaving but I carry all four with me at all times just in case I need to travel to one of the 4 countries (including Europe as I do a lot of business traveling all over)... I only use British passport when I am traveling in Europe as it is the only way to travel and live unlimited amount of time anywhere in UK and Europe without any hassles of obtaining a visa or permit. So I consider myself one of the luckiest people alive and so do my siblings and we are thankful to our parents for all this..

I think having those 4 citizenships is enough lol and I would think these are probably the best 4 citizenships anyone can have and even better without being naturalized as in my and my siblings case...