Words I wouldn't have thought were of American Indian origin

#13 -- I was using American Indian to mean "the languages of the Indians of the Americas". Chaconne, as I said above, is Nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs, not from what is now the United States.

#15

How many words of American Indian origin which have entered the English language of the Americas are used outside the USA/Canada/the Americas in everyday Englsh language - ie in England, Australia, South Africa and so on...

Quite a few. Mostly referring to things of American origin. Foods in particular. Tobacco, cocaine, tomato, potato, avocado, squash, cashew, cocoa, chocolate, chile, barbecue, cannibal, canoe, tapioca, totem. I'm sure there are at least that many more in normal use, and more that everyone would recognize (raccoon, coyote, bayou, savannah) although they may not use them every day since they refer to things found here and not there.

#19 -- Do you mean a smoking jacket in the English sense or a dinner jacket ("un smoking")? I can't imagine that Fred Astaire was buried in the kind of burgundy velvet thing that nutrax describes, which I agree is what a smoking jacket means in English.

What I don't understand is how anyone could use "tuxedo", which I was taught was a type of man's suit, i.e., matching pants and jacket, for a "dinner jacket", which I was taught was just a jacket, normally NOT matching the pants.

Here in México, a "tuxedo", i.e., a man's formal suit, is called "smoking" and never refers to just a jacket. Possibly the "smoking" designation came about to differentiate it from a "morning suit" where the jacket had tails, but I'm still confused about why an English designation for a jacket only became the designation for a formal suit without tails.

Also, the formal suit without tails called "smoking" usually has a jacket with notched lapels or is even double breasted, whereas in the U.S. a tuxedo is usually a formal suit having a single-breasted jacket with un-notched lapels (called shawl lapels).

a "dinner jacket", which I was taught was just a jacket, normally NOT matching the pants.

Do you use "dinner jacket" for what I would call a "sport coat" or a "blazer"?

You don't wear a dinner jacket without the appropriate tie, trousers, etc., so there really is no possibility of confusion. If I say I was wearing a dinner jacket, no one will think I was wearing it over Bermuda shorts or a lunghi.

Similarly, I would say "morning coat" (with the striped trousers, ascot/cravat, etc. assumed), not "morning suit".

Vinny, #22, You certainly have a point, but to me, a "dinner jacket" is one of a different color than the trousers, whereas a "tuxedo" is a suit with matching trousers. I suppose you could call a "dinner jacket" a "formal" sport coat by my definition.

I think you are probably right and I was wrong about the coat with tails, since it is just a jacket and, as you say, doesn't match the trousers, so shouldn't be called a "morning suit". I have had a fair amount of experience with tuxedos and smoking, but absolutely none with morning coats.

However you refer to it, you would be wearing the whole set, but the difference would come in for example if you were picking up the trousers part from the dry cleaner. What do you ask? In languages that use smoking, you say "I'm here to pick up the trousers of a smoking." What do you say in English? Are you picking up "the pants/trousers of a dinner jacket" or "the pants/trousers that go with a dinner jacket" or what?

#23 --

I would probably say "tuxedo pants" here in the US, because I would want to be understood. If my dry cleaner thinks "'Tuxedo?' What a boor," I guess I can live with that.

I don't know what I would say in the UK. With any luck at all I'll never be in that situation.

#24 -- If you were to wear a white dinner/tuxedo jacket, as I don't believe I have ever done, surely the trousers would still be black, no?

I've never worn either a morning coat or white tie. I'm told my grandfather wore a morning coat with top hat to Sunday mass every week.

Vinny, #26, If I wore a white dinner jacket with black tuxedo trousers, I would certainly not call it wearing a tuxedo. As a matter of fact, that combination, while very popular, is considered somewhat less formal than the wearing of a tuxedo and is specifically not acceptable at certain formal affairs.

Interesting hearing the differences between tuxedo and dinner jacket.

I would assume 'tuxedo' meant the whole outfit - the tuxedo jacket, pants, cummerbund or waist coat, even the little bow tie. Whereas dinner jacket - to me - indicates solely the jacket itself. I certainly did not realise that they are considered the same thing.

I also think that if I had read 'dinner jacket' I would instantly think more of a suit jacket but not necessarily the same colour (eg Navy Jacket with stone trousers). If I saw an invite with 'dinner jacket' specified I would (using the above logic) assume it meant a suit jacket of some sort and specifically not a tuxedo.

If an invite referred to 'black tie' I would assume tuxedo. However, even formal events in this country tend to have leeway so it wouldn't be uncommon to see someone at a black tie event being more 'super nice suit which is nicer than a regular business suit'. Rather than a tux I mean. I have to admit, it is a rare occasion when I have seen men actually wearing a tuxedo (as I see it). Even very formal events tend not to feature them. That's not simply a case of me not having attended those functions but I think a genuinely mixed up/slightly more informal or changeable dress code!

As for Morning Dress:

Yes men do wear Morning Dress to weddings here. But other than the most formal of weddings this would be rare to see if they were not in the bride & groom's party. Otherwise, most men wear suits or at least a suit jacket.

Actually, I could probably say a lot of people wear jeans! But as a basic rule, dress pants and a shirt (& possibly a tie) at the very least. After all, it's hard to mosh to ACDC in a tux.

Edited by: sneaker_fish