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I have various books which attempt to show how the Indo-European languages are all related by showing the similarity of core vocabulary of the IE languages and how much they differs from similar vocabulary in some sample non-IE languaged, typically things like Turkish, Arabic, Malay, etc. Usually the numbers from 1 to 10 and a few other things like father, mother, and so forth are used for these comparisons.

But when I look at the Armenian column for the selected vocabulary items, it really doesn't look any more like the other IE ones than Turkish or Malay, etc, in particular for the numbers.

Here you can see the numbers in various Indo-European languages. http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm#ie
In some of the cases, little-known languages Yaghnobi and so forth, you might not immediately spot the similarities. But when you look at the things related to it and move out you can see chains of connection.

But with Armenian I just can't see any IE similarity at all, or at least not enough to make any sense of it. OK, 4 is very similar to various Persian languages, and 10 looks plausibly IE. But that's about it, as far as I can see. And there is as much random similarity between Malay and IE as that (1,2,3 in Malay is satu, dua, tiga). Putting the Armenian numbers next to Turkish, you can see as much random (or not?) similarities there.

So what's going on here? Are there unexpected sound changes in Armenian, t/d turned to k or something, which I might spot by seeing a much larger quantity of the vocabulary, and thus decoded the numbers would start looking like IE numbers after all? Or did Armenian borrow its numbers from other places, and you have to look to other parts of Armenian vocabulary to realise that it is IE?

I know that Armenian was not easily identified as an IE language, and it isn't to this day very clear where it fits in relative to the other ones, so I'm not expecting this to be very easy. But the relationship of Hungarian and Finnish was not easy either: but when the vocabulary comparison evidence was put in front of me it I was surprised how strong and obvious it looked, especially when some of the intermediates were shown also.

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1

Here you can find almost everything: Etymological dictionary of Armenian. Knowledge of Amenian script is useful, but there's also a shortcut for transliteration. Indeed there are some "strange" sound changes, like *dwo- > erk >> erku (2), or p>h in case of 5, 3 also required some acrobatics etc. mi (1) has the same origin as 'same' in English.

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2

I can't help. It's really one, two, and three that look the oddest. After that you can see relationships.

Googling didn't help but it did turn up this Armenian proverb:

Մէկ ձեռքը ծափ չի տայ:

* Transliteration: Mek dzerq@ tzap chi ta.
* Translation: One hand will not clap.

I don't know what happens when an Armenian meets a Zen master. (Nor do I know what sound is represented by @.)

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3

Interesting link.

Are there any Pashtu or Persian/Pahlavi speakers around?

I got some spare time for the weekend, so here is a question - a bit off topic though....

I've looked at the 5 in the link, and as a Polish speaker, I found it surprising how little it has changed from Sanskrit, to Slavic languages.
páñca (Sanskrit) - pięć (Polish - pron. pyench ).
It looks very similar also through Pashtu, Persian and Dravidian.
Even 2 (two) doesn't seem to have changed at all - dva (Sanskrit) and dwa (Pol.) (w=v in Pol. pronunciation).

But, my qestion is - if anyone who speaks either Pashtu or Persian has an answer:
Could 5 and fist be corelated. Polish "pięć" (5) and "pięść" (fist) look and sound similar.
Does anyone know the word for "fist" in any of the mentioned languages - Pashtu or Persian?

Furthermore, as another loose association - can Sanskirt, or Polish, "pięć" (5) and "pięść" (fist) be corelated with English "punch"? They sound similar in pronunciation. It's a long shot, but it got me curious.

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4

*dwo- > erk >> erku

That just shows how languages can completely conceal where they came from... What an unbelievable sound change.

fist

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=fist&searchmode=none suggests it all came from five.

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5

punch is apparently not related to five. As I understand Vasmer, in Slavic and Germanic languages (but apparently not wider, so I'm not sure knowledge of Iranian languages would help you in this case) fist indeed most likely comes from 5, but it has been repeatedly made similar to it, that's why they are still very similar.

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6

Igor,
From the link provided by you, quite contrary to what you said, I understand that there is a corelation between fist and punch (the second quote).
It says:
Punch
from O.Fr. ponchonner "to punch, prick, stamp," from ponchon "pointed tool
and also,
Specific meaning of "to hit with the fist"

Then, when you look at “fist” in Romance languages they all start with pu- or pun-, or poin- (Fr.)
Poing (Fr.)
Pugno (It.)
Puny (Catalan)
Puño (Sp.)
Punho (Port.)

Op,
Sorry for going off topic with the above.
Back to Armenian numerals - for some reason they are indeed different from other IE languages.

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7

tonieja, read the whole thing.

Latin pugnus, fist, is apparently from the same root as Latin punctum and therefore English punch, IE peuk meaning pierce. And pygmy is a Greek word from the same root: the pygmies were just a cubit (elbow to fist) tall.

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8

ok, I had another look. Fist is almost surely ultimately derived from 5, punch is from Latin pungo, poing etc. are from Latin pugnus, both are apparently from Greek, but from different words. From here on I don't know if there are 3 different IE roots or 2 or 1.

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