"to possess another language is to possess another soul"

No, that's true, and that's as far as individual words go, but if we accept that different countries have different cultures, this kind of thing must exist.

A person who grew up in a posh family will sound different from someone who grew up in a blue-collar neighborhood. We learn our first language by imitation of our parents, grandparents, neighbors, teachers. Once you get to the point in a foreign language where you are learning from the speakers of the language, rather than from grammar books, it's learning by imitation again, so the way you speak is as least to some extent -- I think -- influenced by who you are talking to in that language. If people in Spain behave and react somewhat differently from people from England in the same situation, that may leave an impression in the speech of an English learner of Spanish.

Edited -- to say that I don't mean this in a Sapir-Whorf kind of way. The person won't necessarily change his/her behavior, but may sound different.

Now this thread is getting close to the nitty-gritty, thanks to shilgia.

alan said,

"But if the new soul truly came from the new language, you wouldn't just be Mexican in outlook: you'd also be Spanish, Argentinian, and Guatemalan. Similarly your original soul wouldn't give you an American outlook: it would give you an American-British-Irish-Australian view of life - if such a thing exists. So why do you mention American in particular and Mexican in particular?"

Well, alan, IF you think that Spanish is the same in the countries you name, and English is the same in those countries, you are exactly right.

The reality is, however, that although there are many underlying similarities in the cultures, due to the common language, there are many more distinct features to the cultures of each individual country that are due to the particular version of the common language (not necessarily so "common" in many instances) spoken in that country.

I doubt that many would argue that the Spanish-speaking cultures have the same "worldview" (soul) as the English-speaking cultures. In many instances, common "sayings" can't even be translated…the cultural divide and the language divide is just too great. The differences, absolutely reflected in the spoken language, are too numerous to discuss in depth, but I'll give a couple of examples.

In Spanish there are two different "states of being", in English only one!

The two cultures perceive time differently, and this is reflected in the way it is spoken of in the two languages.

And a couple of thoughts on the differences in "worldview" within the two language families.

The Spanish of Spain is closer to the original castellano, very courtly, heavy use of the more complex grammatical aspects of the language such as compound verbs, etc. The Spanish of México is very direct (a Spaniard would say blunt), with little use of complex grammar or compound verbs. This gives the two "Spanish" cultures quite a different "worldview".

I wouldn't know exactly how to characterize the differences in spoken "standard", i.e., television network newscaster, U.S. English and "standard", i.e., BBC newscaster, British English, but they are sufficiently different to cause a different "worldview" within the cultures where they are spoken.

This could be a very interesting discussion. Some of the other SiT regulars should chime in…if the "new, improved" TT hasn't driven them off!!

Male, over 70 and getting younger everyday, U.S.A. & México

mazgringo, I realise that there are differences in the versions of Spanish (and English) used in different countries. However in normal usage English is regarded as a language, not a set of languages, and so is Spanish. I have been interpreting the original saying as referring to language in that normal sense.

I think you are now saying that different cultures can be reflected in different versions or dialects of the same language. The original phrase would thus become something like "to possess another dialect is to possess another soul". So that a native English speaker from Ireland, like myself, could acquire a second soul by living in England for a while and becoming comfortable with English English, and a third by moving to the US and becoming fluent in American English. Maybe so, but I wonder if that was really the intention behind the original saying. Personally I feel that if I have a soul at all, it's something rather more fundamental, not something that could be changed just by learning to talk about cookies instead of biscuits.

Once again, just to be clear: I am not in any way denying the existence of differences between cultures. I am just not convinced that there is any necessary link between those differences and different languages.

the differences in spoken "standard", i.e., television network newscaster, U.S. English and "standard", i.e., BBC newscaster, British English, but they are
sufficiently different to cause a different "worldview"

I'm rather sceptical about this. Of course I'd expect the average BBC newscaster and the average US newcaster to have different worldviews. And obviously they speak different dialects. But to say that the relatively minor dialect differences cause the difference in worldview seems to me to be a huge leap - a leap that I'd need a lot of persuasion to take.

there are many more distinct features to the cultures of each individual country that are due to the particular version of the common language

I have similar trouble with this. I don't doubt that there are differences between Spanish and Mexican culture. But which of these differences, other than trivial ones, are actually caused by the difference between peninsular and Mexican Spanish?

alan, You may be completely correct, and I may be wrong about the cultural differences being reflected in the dialectical differences.

BUT, I notice that you don't argue against the difference in languages reflecting the "worldview" of the different cultures which use them. To me, that's a given. One will never completely understand any culture until one speaks the language of that culture! Maybe "worldview" is a better word with less semantic freight than "soul", but for me "soul" says it all.

I just thought of a really good example of the foregoing.

If asked (in English) if you speak someone's language, we would say, "I get by." or "Enough to get by." or (and I don't know whether this is just old-fashioned or British) "I get along." Now, try to translate that into Spanish…it not only doesn't translate, it's even difficult to explain. Semantically, it carries somewhat (in other uses) of something sneaky, i.e., "I can get by the sentries." or "He found a way to get by the regulations."

But, if asked in Spanish if you speak Spanish, the correct response (if true, of course) is, "Me defiendo." Now that translates perfectly, but with a great cultural difference or "worldview". "Me defiendo." translates literally as, "I defend myself." This is a much more direct, confrontational meaning. No sneakiness involved at all.

If that doesn't demonstrate a rather large difference in "worldview" between the Spanish-speaking cultures and the English-speaking cultures, I don't know what does!

I dream in Urdu sometimes but live in an Australian dialect English environment.If that isn't an expression of the soul and an indication of the power of having a some mastery over a second language then , what is?