This was triggered by an earlier post commenting on this article but i think it warrants its own post rather than being burried at the bottom of a thread.
It is one of my theories that ultimately Chinese creativity is going to be stifled by this inability to come up with new words for new concepts. Every new word needs to be expressed in terms of already existing concepts and characters. Just the simple fact that one cannot write down a foreign name accurately in Chinese is a hindrance. Japanese has found a way of dealing with this through its use of Katakana. Chinese hasn't.
My name is not an English one but the latin script allows me to write it down and give an English speaker a good idea of how it is pronounced. That is impossible in Chinese. Of course i can't prove this, but it is my feeling that long term this has allowed cultures using the Latin script to be more innovative and flexible towards new concepts and ideas, both in the creation of them as well as in absorbing ideas coming from the outside. Apart from the fact of course that it is a lot easier to learn 26 letters and their pronunciation rather than a few 1000 chinese characters and their unpredictable pronunciation.
what do you think?
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<hr>It is one of my theories that ultimately Chinese creativity is going to be stifled by this inability to come up with new words for new concepts.<hr></blockquote>a stupid theory based on misinformation<blockquote>Quote
<hr>That is impossible in Chinese<hr></blockquote>Depends on what your name is<blockquote>Quote
<hr>a few 1000 chinese characters and their unpredictable pronunciation.<hr></blockquote>This is gibberish.<blockquote>Quote
<hr>what do you think?<hr></blockquote>I think you know absolutely nothing about the Chinese language.
Some new Chinese words for new concepts
ɹ¿Í - shaike - file-sharer
Íþ¿Í - weike - wiki, an editable information website such as wikipedia
ÔÒƱ - zapiao - to rig a contest with excessive text message votes
²©¿Í - boke - blog
etc etc...
It seems to me that China has absorbed many more foreign concepts and ideas in the last century -- republicanism, Marxism-Leninism, now large-scale capitalism, all sorts of Western technological ideas -- than, say, the USA has. It's a little hard to quantify, but for example Shanghai today looks a lot less "Chinese" than it did 100 years ago, while New York and Chicago don't look less American.
I don't think the two languages have anything to do with that, though.
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<hr>Chinese creativity is going to be stifled by this inability to come up with new words for new concepts. Every new word needs to be expressed in terms of already existing concepts and characters.<hr></blockquote>The first assumption you're making here is that in languages that use an alphabetical writing system it is possible to coin phonetically new words to describe a new concept. Staying within the phonological limits of the language this would mean that the word 'broggle' could at some point in time come to be used in English to refer to an object, feeling or abstract concept. The second assumption is that Chinese characters cannot be changed, that it's impossible to create new characters and that concepts (words) are always expressed by a single character.
The first assumption is true, although it is a relatively rare phenomenon. Coining new words usually involves other processes, like borrowing from another language (e.g. 'computer'), extending the meaning of an already existing word (e.g. 'train'), combining existing words to form a new one (e.g. 'trade union') or a combination of several processes (e.g. 'microchip').
People who don't speak Chinese often think that it is a monosyllabic language. They think that in Chinese every syllable is a word and every word is written with a single character. This, however, is not the case. It is true that every syllable is represented by a character, but a large part of modern Chinese vocabulary consists of polysyllabic words and are written with two or more characters (e.g. gaoxing/happy, zixingche/bycicle, tushuguan/library). These compound words consist of several existing words/characters, but the new word refers to a new concept that isn't the same as the sum of the meanings of the different elements. So Chinese doesn't differ from other languages in that it can form new words by combining existing ones.
New characters can also be formed in Chinese. To people who don’t read Chinese, Chinese characters appear to be more or less random signs that bear little or no ressemblance to the object or concept they refer to. Most characters, though, consist of several easily distinguishable elements. In modern Chinese, there’s a large, but finite number of elements that can be used. One element is the ‘radical’, which classifies the character and of which there are (I think) 150-160. Another element can point the reader in the direction of the meaning of the character (e.g. both characters of the word yuyan/language contain an element that, when used on its own is read ‘kou’ and means ‘mouth’) and a third element can give clues about the pronunciation of the character. The relationship between sign and pronunciation is, indeed, much loser in Chinese, but it’s not true that the pronunciation of characters is entirely unpredictable. Besides, this disadvantage is compensated by the fact that in characters there is a much stronger link between sign and meaning than in alphabetic script. New characters can be formed by combining several of the forementioned elements.
The above implies that there is no real difference between languages that use an alphabet and Chinese, when it comes to coining new words and adopting new ideas and concepts. Besides, to say that Chinese culture is inherently lacking in creativity and innovative spirit clearly ignores the fact that the Chinese invented gunpowder, printing and silk and created some of the most impressive architecture and art the world has ever seen.
The evidence of the creative developments of all cultures is that they did pretty well before they had written languages, wouldn't you say? So lack of a written language didn't appear to stifle creativity then. Why should it now?
OP here. I appreciate some of the points made here- let me point out that i don't claim to be a specialist in languages or in Chinese, although i did study Chinese writing and speaking and have a basic understanding of some of the concepts that underpin the language(s). also, this is obviously a speculative personal theory and not rooted in years of scientific research.
To start with #5- no culture was able to survive and flourish without a written language, as it can't share ideas easily. Written documents were the reason the Chinese and the Romans were able to administer large empires, and were one of the reasons why the Conquistadores were able to beat the native Americans so easily. If you need more examples, read 'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond. So writing is crucial to a culture's survival and success. To assume from this that the writing system could have an impact on the level of success of the culture is perhaps a daring and unconventional but not entirely illogical step.
I am aware of radicals, and how they indicate pronunciation and meaning. (note the word 'indicate' and not 'determine'). I am also aware of Chinese words and concepts being formed of multiple characters. But that is partly what led to my speculative theory. I clearly remember studying chinese vocabulary of words that contain the character for electricity. e.g. 'computer' combines 'electric' and 'brain' and 'telephone' combines 'electric' and 'words'. That's what I meant why i said that Chinese always has to build on existing concepts. And how does one distinguish between an 'electric brain' and a 'computer'?
The fact remains that in order to read a paper one needs to learn and memorize 1000s of characters (no matter what #1 says) and that one needs to memorize their pronunciation as well (again, no matter what #1 says). Radicals help but are not a sure-fire way of determining meaning and sound.
Is it possible in Chinese to come up with a completely new word or name that has no implied meaning? I would think it is hard because the characters already have a meaning. Although many words in English and other languages using the Latin script are borrowed or building on existing concept, it is possible to come up with new words and especially names. There are branding agencies who make a living by coining new names that don't exist.
As i said, my name cannot be rendered into chinese script. Whereas Chinese names can easily be rendered into Latin script- pinyin being the case in point.
Perhaps all of this is not relevant as the Chinese language is flexible enough and people's brains and creativity are not limited by a written language. On the other hand, to accuse me of being misinformed and knowing nothing of the Chinese language without providing any real rebuttal is not exactly going to help a constructive debate. And i personally hate the fact that China is the only country I have been where i cannot keep my own name.
cheers
MTL
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<hr>And how does one distinguish between an 'electric brain' and a 'computer'? <hr></blockquote>
Context, for one.
And I want to know in what context you'd be speaking of an "electric brain" and not meaning a computer?
Computer, in the sense electronic computer, was more of an extension of meaning than a borrowing from another language. In the 1920s there were computers on the staffs of large telescopes. They were (mostly) women who did the tiresome calculations. I think the US Census Bureau had human computers (I have perhaps just coined a retronym. Of course, the word in that sense had been borrowed from Latin or formed from Latin roots. (com= with, together; putare = think).
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<hr>And i personally hate the fact that China is the only country I have been where i cannot keep my own name. <hr></blockquote>
"name"!!! what is it? a symbol for yourself? an identity that you grow with you for a good part of your life, in your own culture and in your own language?
or is it something you can identify yourself with? a thing that enable you to socialize with your peers. and the most important question i am posing to you - who are your peers? who define exactly who you are - yourself or your peers?
think the title should be changed to this:
"the impact of creativity on chinese writing"
keep trying for another 10 years perhaps you could start understanding a bit of that wisdom, grasshopper.
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