Paco and Pancho

Thanks, anillos.

Anillos, I have a question for you: Pancho is not normally used in Spain, is it? (other than when referring to a Latin American Pancho). I know lots of Spanish Pacos and some Frans, but I've never heard of a Spanish Pancho.

BTW, in Mexico the Paco/Pancho/Fran divide among Franciscos is, I would say, 75% / 20% / 5% respectively (based on my very personal estimation, no data to back this up of course).

(Sorry Vinny, for semi-hijacking your thread).

but Basque has F

It ihas only relatively recently acquired it, to the extent that it is sometimes proposed that the (incomplete) f -> h tendency in Spanish (eg filius -> hijo) was a Basque influence. For most of the post-Latin period, the presence of a Basque language without, or with few, Fs is an anti-F tendency in the Iberian peninsular.

Anillos, I have a question for you: Pancho is not normally used in Spain, is it?

Based too on my very personal stimation, no, it isn't. I'd say Fran, Paco, Kiko, Curro (mainly on the South) and Çesc (in Catalonia, from Catalan Françesc) are the most used... but Pancho is also used (see below).

I know lots of Spanish Pacos and some Frans, but I've never heard of a Spanish Pancho.

Let me introduce you a Spanish Pancho: [Pancho Varona|es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Varona].

It ihas only relatively recently acquired it

I'm not an expert on the history of Basque language. I knew F exists because the [march of San Sebastián|eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Sebastian_martxa] has a word with it. And that's why I pointed it out.

That solitary F turns out to be a particularly transparent recent borrowing. Festara! Dantzara! You don't need to know much about Basque to understand that.

That solitary F turns out to be a particularly transparent recent borrowing.

OK, let's quote a less transparent example: Froga. How many people without knowledge of Basque would be able to say its meaning?
No idea if that's a recent borrowing too though.

P.S.: I'm not discussing if the F is a recent borrowing in Basque as I don't have enough knowledge about it (so I can't comment). What I'm trying to point out is that it's not the same not to have a letter at all (as your words on #2 suggest) than to have recently borrowed it.

Froga is from Latin proba. It looks like it came from Latin directly, not via Spanish prueba, or if it came from Spanish, it must have come very early, before o became ue.

Maybe Basque allows f initially when it comes immediately before r.

Froga is from Latin proba. It looks like it came from Latin directly, not via Spanish prueba, or if it came from Spanish, it must have come very early, before o became ue.

There's another option. Among the translations of Spanish probar (the verb) to Basque are probatu and frogatu. Maybe, frogatu comes from probatu and probatu from probar... and Basque keep the /o/ when making the noun.

Some more info just in case someone was interested. According to [Wikipedia|en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_alphabet], F isn't among the letters included on the Basque alphabet to write words borrowed from languages that use those letters. I didn't find a source disagreeing with the info provided by Wikipedia about the F on Basque.

It's true most Basque words by F are (very) similar (sometimes even identical) to the same words in Spanish but it's also true there are some exceptions. Some examples: Fier (altivo in Spanish, naughty in English), Fazoin (modo or manera in Spanish, way in English), Findegi (refinería in Spanish, refinery in English), Fereka (caricia in Spanish, caress in English).

F could be a recent+ borrowing in Basque, I don't know, but it seems clear it's used on Basque words and it'll be a date when the borrowing won't be +recent anymore.

Fier (altivo in Spanish, naughty in English), Fazoin (modo or manera in Spanish, way in English), Findegi (refinería in Spanish, refinery in English), Fereka (caricia in Spanish, caress in English).

Fier is clearly, via some route, from Latin ferus (wild), perhaps via french (where fier today means proud, but comes from ferus originally). Both Portuguese and French have words like fazoin of that meaning, facon in French. Findegi wouldn't surprise me if it was from the same origin as words like fine, which is where refine comes from. Fereka no idea.

All I was trying to say, which is a far from original suggestion, is that a tendency away from F in Castillian might have had some assistance from Basque contact. I'm sorry I couldn't initially be bothered making the careful statement that while Old Basque didn't have F, it has been accepted into the language today, but remains a relatively uncommon letter and is found mostly words of borrowed origin: many other words borrowed into Basque with an F in them lost it (eg lore flower).

Though since we see Guiseppe/Peppo in Italian, I now realise that such a suggestion is hardly necessary or likely. It is probably more likely that F is just a harder thing for young children to say than P.

All I was trying to say, which is a far from original suggestion, is that a tendency away from F in Castillian might have had some assistance from Basque contact.

Those interested in that question can read the [Wikipedia article|es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambio_fon%C3%A9tico_%C2%ABf_%E2%86%92_h%C2%BB_del_espa%C3%B1ol] about it (in Spanish).