French tu/vous

What Kerouac2 writes almost perfectly describes the situation in Mexican Spanish. Always use "Usted" (and/or its verb conjugations–quite easy in Spanish as it has the same conjugations as he, she and it–only "tú" has its own special conjugations) with strangers unless they are obviously children.

Outside of the major metro area of Mexico City, few, if any, will ever ask you to change to "tú". I've known my wife's parents for 10 years now and have been made to feel a complete part of the family, yet I have never been asked to "tutearme", i.e., use "tú" when addressing me.

Even in the foreign tourist areas, you will find that this brings MUCH bigger smiles (minor bureaucrats such as customs and immigration officials particularly respond positively) and more respect for YOU from the locals.

I find it curious that, unlike English, the drift in the Spanish-speaking countries is towards the use of the familiar in place of the formal/respectful. English went exactly the opposite way, as "you" was originally the formal/respectful and "thee" was the familiar or informal. I have my own fairly strong ideas about why this happened, but I've really not researched the matter.

Edited by: mazgringo

Minor correction.

"you" was originally the formal/respectful

Like "vous", it was originally the plural. It spent a century or two, including Shakespeare's time, as the formal/respectful before becomng universal.

Frankly, I very much approve of the different forms, although I will admit that they are an absolute nightmare to people who are not totally bilingual.

Just to use the office example, "tu" and "vous" are selected very quickly to address various people, and that form will remain even if you work with the people for 30 or more years. Secretaries will almost always choose the "vous" form for anybody with whom they have official dealings but are happy with "tu" for any colleagues who do not affect their work. I am rather high in the hierarchy in my office and have noticed that I have to power to say "tu" to just about anybody, even when they say "vous" to me (generally due to my age rather than my demeanor). However, I reserve "vous" to people of power whom I do not respect rather than the opposite, and this is very common in the work world -- you use the tools of the language to inform people that you will forever maintain a distance from them no matter how hard they try to break through.

One of the most perverse uses is to address important people by their first name and still use "vous" with them. It is a mark of contempt. I reserve this for the company lawyers while they still call me "Monsieur."

Some languages have quite a large number of gradations. Argentinean Spanish has the vos form lying between tu and usted in formality. Portuguese (European at least) similarly has a voce form lying between tu and o senhor/a senhora, the form o menino/a menina for addressing children (and maybe servants?), and a maze of honorific forms for addressing social superiors.

italian in effect has three levels if you're addssing one person: tu (second peron singular) informal, voi (second perwon plural) informal but not as informal as tu, and lei (actually third person, as if for "your presence" or something along those lines) formal. If you're addressing a number of people there's only voi and loro (plural of lei).

And "your presence" remnds me that I once had an Arabic teacher, an Egyptian probably born c. 1937, who grew up addressing her father that way, hadhrutuk.

#14 - Vinny, I'm not sure about "voi" as being informal. As far as I know, it's the formal second person singular pronoun in traditional southern Italian speech, and is unknown (in the singular) in central and northern Italy. Granted, I imagine it may come across as less distant because it's a local form, as opposed to the "lei" of standard Italian.

Does anyone use "loro" anymore? I don't think I've ever heard it, but perhaps I just need to frequent more five-star hotels and fancy restaurants.

As a general rule, in Italian these days it seems to be increasingly the case that you use "tu" with anyone you meet in an informal social context. I only ever hear seem to hear "lei" in official and commercial dealings.

I've heard it in the singular in Tuscany, fear_rua.

#16 - really? That surprises me. I've only ever heard it in the south, and friends from elsewhere have described it to me as a southern usage. Intriguing.

Now that I think of it, this was 30 years ago. Things may have changed.

Even in the south, it's seen as somewhat old-fashioned I think, unless you're actually speakng dialect (which is less and less common among young people in the south these days, I believe).