Four directions, plus... ?

I am in my first week of Finnish classes. It's a very interesting language for a number of reasons, at least from the point of view of someone used to Indo-European languages. Anyway, if I am reading the vocabulary list properly, Finnish has not only the usual words for North, South, East and West but also what appear to be "dedicated" words (by which I mean words not derived from the words for the other directions) for NE, SE, SW and NW. There may be more than these eight for all I know.

Are there many cultures that do not have the usual four directions (either more or fewer)? I would think "sunrise-direction" and "sunset-direction" would be the two naturals with others following from them, but would appreciate any enlightenment.

Thanks.

CK

I think Catalan has eight. But the "extra" four may be used only as names of winds rather than as directions per se. There are Catalan speakers around who would know.

Are the other geographical directions in Finnish separate words, or compounds? In Swedish there is 'nordost' (north-east) and 'sydost' (south-east), but they are actually compounds of nord - öst and syd - öst, without umlaut (o - ö).
There is a bit more to it in Swedish, but I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, it'd be interesting to know the origin of the English North, South, East and West. In Polish, those words translated to English, are Midnight, Midday, Rise, Descend.

Finnish has eight directions, all individual words, not compounds. They are also used in everyday speach (although I have to admit I often have to pause and go through the whole list before finding the right word).

Good old Wikipedia has some interesting things to say on cardinal direction in different languages/cultures, including Finnish.

Here is a windrose with the eight Catalan names. Now that I look at the names I'm pretty sure they are just wind names (xaloc = scirocco). I doubt that thay're used for directions generally; i.e. I don't think you'd tell someone drive xaloc-wise on Highway 1 for 10 km etc.

And [here]http://web.uflib.ufl.edu/cm/africana/windrose.htm[/L] is one with the equivalent wind names in Greek, Latin, and Italian.

If anyone's interested, here's the etymology of Finnish directions:

North: pohjoinen, from 'pohja' (back, bottom), because houses used to be built their back towards the coldest direction
NE: koillinen, from 'koi' (sunrise), the direction in which the sun is first visible
East: itä, presumably from 'itää' (sporut, grow), where the sun "grows" from
SE: kaakko, from 'kaakkuri' (a bird species), the direction from which the migrating birds arrive
South: etelä, from 'esi' (front), because houses were built facing the warmest direction
SW: lounas, (orig. noon, daytime), where the sun is at midday (lounas means also lunch)
West: länsi, origin unknown, possibly from 'lansi, lannistaa' (lowland, lay down) meaning the direction in which the sun is low
NW: luode, origin unknown, possibly from 'luotaa' (go down, plunge into) meaning the direction in which the sun sinks

The directions weren't fixed until 19th century though. The meanings vary between different dialects and related languages, for example 'lounas' can mean anything between South and North West.

Indonesian/Malay has interesting words for NW, NE, SW, SE.

southeast - "tenggara", which is its own word and has no links to either south (selatan) or east (timur).
northeast - "timur laut", literally "sea east"
northwest - "barat laut", literally "sea west"
southwest - "barat daya". I've never quite understood this one - "daya" can mean power or potency, so I suppose barat daya means the powerful west?

Balinese has different principle directions: kaja (towards the mountains) and kelod (towards the sea), rather than the 4 cardinal compass points.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Balinese has different principle directions: kaja (towards the mountains) and kelod (towards the sea), rather than the 4 cardinal compass points.<hr></blockquote>
I think that's the same in Hawaii and possibly some other polynesian islands.

Estonian has also 8 words for directions like Finnish. But there is one confusing difference. The Estonian word for South (lõuna) corresponds to Finnish word for SW (lounas) and Finnish word for South (etelä) corresponds to Estonian word for SW (edel). I once saw a geography book for children that was translated from Finnish to Estonian and these directions were mixed up.

Ha, that's interesting siiludus. I also get confused by the Estonian "lääne" (west) although it's basically the same as the Finnish "länsi", because I learnt the word from the Estonian name of the Baltic Sea, Läänemeri ("Western Sea" which makes sense)... and in Finnish it's "Itämeri" ("East Sea"... doesn't really make sense...) so somehow I still think that the Estonian "lääne" means "east".

Kape,
I understand that can be confusing,
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Estonian name of the Baltic Sea, Läänemeri ("Western Sea" which makes sense)... and in Finnish it's ("East Sea"... doesn't really make sense...) <hr></blockquote>
My guess is that the term "Itämeri" (Eastern Sea) was imported from Sweden, where the Balitic Sea is along the eastern coast of Sweden, and is called Östersjön (Eastern Sea).
Looking from Estonia, which is opposite to Sweden, across Baltic, the sea is really to the west, and the name they use really makes sense.

Yes, I'm sure it's a loan translation in Finnish, but somehow I would think that it's quite an old loan so that it would come from some old Germanic language rather than actual Swedish.

That could be as you say. It seems that Eastern Sea (Baltic Sea) is the common name for all Germanic languages, except English.

Back to the topic - it's interesting to see how the world directions in Finnish, and some other languages, are determined by other factors than the sun cycle.
It would be interesting to hear also about Hungarian.

I've tried to find the origin or the Germanic N-S-E-W. There is not much about that is sure. North is associated with 'left' when facing the rising sun. But the origin of the remaining three directions is unclear.

I'm still a bit puzzled with the Polish. Midnight (north), Midday (south). It's not used in other Slavic languages.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>In Polish, those words translated to English, are Midnight, Midday, Rise, Descend.<hr></blockquote>

And the Polish word for "west", zachod, means "toilet" in Czech. The Polish translation of the book All Quiet on the Western Front has a very funny title for Czechs: "Na Zachodzie bez zmian". This sounds like it should mean something like "in toilets without changes".

I don't know about the midnight/midday thing in Polish, it's weird. I don't know if any other Slavic languages use it.

#14
Haha, we've got a lot of 'false friends', both ways, that can make you laugh.
So is the case with the Czech "Východ" (East), which in Polish diminutive form means outhouse (toilet).

In romance languages, in addition to the standard E-W-S-N, there's also oriental, occidental, meridional, septentrional. In Spanish, poniente (West) is still quite common.

Thanks for the replies so far.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>it'd be interesting to know the origin of the English North, South, East and West<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>There is not much about that is sure. North is associated with 'left' when facing the rising sun. But the origin of the remaining three directions is unclear.<hr></blockquote>

#13 There is a fair amount at etymonline.com. I particularly like that the ancient "East" eventually gave us "Australia."

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>I don't know about the midnight/midday thing in Polish, it's weird. I don't know if any other Slavic languages use it.<hr></blockquote>

A Ukrainian-American colleague told me long ago that the words were similar in Ukrainian--sure enough, an online translator yields "pivnich" and "pivden" for "north" and "south."

CK

On midday meaning south in Polish: the south of France is the Midi and the south of Italy is the Mezzogiorno, both meaning midday. They're not used for directions, though, just as names of the regions.

I can confirm #17, that Ukrainian follows Polish usage.

The French Midi is used to mean South in the Belgian dialect. For example, Bruxelles has Gare du Midi = south station,

So do the Finns use these 8 directions absolutely or referentially?
I mean, if someone gives you directions and they tell you to go west, do you go to the absolute west (where west always is) or do you go west from where you are at that point? I'm asking this because I know that some cultures have absolute direction. These people always know where the four directions are. I would be highly surprised if the Finns have absolute direction like this. Either way, absolute direction is a fascinating example of how language can influendce thought.

In Tetun, the lingua franca of East Timor, the words used for directions are:
East: Loro sae, meaning sunrise
West: loro monu meaning sunset
South: Tasi mane, literally meaning male sea, probably because the seas are rough on the south coast of Timor.

Norh: tasifeto meaning female sea.
I can't recall any words for Northeast, Southeast etc, they probbaly either use Indonesian or Portuguese words for them.

#20 -- I don't understand what you mean by the distinction between "to the absolute west (where west always is)" and "west from where you are at that point". Wherever I am, if I head towards the absolute west, I'm heading west, right?

Maybe Jantrao means there are cultures where people give directions in terms of North, South, East, and West instead of left and right?

If not: are there cultures where the West and East are defined in the same way as our North and South? (The Western standard concept of North and South are two points, while the West and the East are two lines.)

#23 -- I want to be sure I'm following you about the points and lines. You mean that there are North and South Poles but not East and West Poles?

I don't think those are really intrinsic to how people in the West feel about the directions. East is where the sun rises. North is to your left when you face the sunrise. Etc. Those concepts were around long before there was any idea that the earth rotated on an axis, and maybe even before there was a clear idea that the heavens rotated around the earth.

#24 -- Yes, no East and West Poles. In other words, if you hear that two people stand as far North as possible, you know they are standing on the same spot. If two people are as far West as you can get (by some definition), they could be a large distance from each other.

Good point about the East defining the four directions, but does every culture known to man use the sun as a reference point for directions?

By the way, where the sun rises changes a bit over the months, but our definition of the East does not. (This isn't an argument one way or the other, just an observation.)

#25 -- North and South don't change through the year though (North in the northern hemisphere being the direction of shadow cast by a stick when it's shortest, i.e. at solar noon; and you wouldn't have to be very sophisticated to determine true east as the right angle of that).

#2 -- I finally got around to refreshing my memory on the etymologies of the Germanic words. East is the most certain. It's the direction of the sun rise, from the same IndoEuropean root as Latin orient-, rising (and also related to aurora, dawn). West is related to Latin vesperus and Greek hesperos, evening, and may have to do with the sun going "down" There is a Sanskrit word avas = down which may be related. South may mean the sun direction, the part of the sky where you see the sun (in the Northern hemisphere). North is the most obscure. The Osco-Umbrians in pre-Roman Italy had a word nertro = left. That may be the idea of north (left as you face the rising sun; same idea as in Arabic shammal) but that's not a lot of evidence.

#26 -- Vinny: What you say about the shadow of the stick is true for the parts of the earth above the Tropic of Cancer and below the Tropic of Capricorn. For people in large parts of Africa (for example) the direction of the shortest shadow will change from North to South and back, or the other way around, during the course of a year.

#27 -- Right you are. But the direction of the sunrise won't shift as much there through the year, so if true north and south are harder to determine, true east and west are somewhat easier.

We've wandered a bit. What I meant to be saying in response to your #23 was that the idea that there is a single northernmost point isn't (to my mind) intrinsic to the word north even in western languages, it's information that came along after the word was established, and that we individually learn long after we learn the word. So a language that didn't have that information could still have a word that didn't feel any different from our ordinary conception of north, IMHO.

Is anyone interested in the fact that the streets in Baltimore align with magnetic north as it was when they were laid out c. 1800? OK, I thought not. Carry on.

Is anyone interested in the fact that that nonstop flights from NYC to Hong Kong take off and fly north until they can't fly north anymore and then fly south, without having changed direction? Probably not.

I was glad to learn both facts. I tried NYC-Hong Kong with this distance calculator to see the arch it draws, but that site approximates the earth as a perfect sphere (if I understand it correctly), so it's a bit off. Must be one of the coolest flights there is.

#28 -- Agreed on the concept of "North" not intrinsically including the notion of one point.

#22 -- the absolute west can be different from the relative west. If you're facing north, going west equals the absolute west. But if you're facing south, going west could be either the absolute west or the referential west: going in a westward direction from where you are i.e. left (which would actually be east in this case).

I was thinking of a reason why the Finnish language would have such an intricate directional system and figured it could be because they use it for giving directions. If that is so, then I'm interested to see how they use that system.

Shilgia (#23) is indeed right: some cultures use the absolute directions instead of left and right. And when they say go west, they mean the absolute west, whichever way you're facing. These people always keep track of where the four directions are, something most people in the West don't seem to do. Ask a random person to point east and most won't be able to do it (unless in a very familiar place). That's why I'm interested in what the Finns do: if they use their system for directions and they use it absolutely, they must always be keeping track of the four (or eight) directions too. I've only heard about absolute direction among Eastern/Austronesian cultures.

#31 -- That may be true in languages where wthe same word is used for "west" and "left", assuming there is such a language, but not in English. If you're facing south, and you go west, you go to your right. If you go to your left, you're going east.

#32 -- I agree with you that you can't do it in English, but we were talking about Finnish. So that's why I was wondering how the Finns do it.

(Popups are forbidden here but I just want to quote shilgia at #23.)

Maybe Jantrao means there are cultures where people give directions in terms of North, South, East, and West instead of left and right?

#23 You may safely include Manhattan culture there. It isn't quite laid out accoridng to the four absolute directions, but it's close enough that people tell each other to head west along a given street (or arrange to meet on, say, the northeast corner formed by the intersection of two streets).

#31 Finnish has dedicated words for left and right that do not have to do with "absolute" directions. I only know the word for right. That is because, as is the case with many other languages and to the annoyance of us lefties, the word for "right" also means "correct," "proper" etc.

CK

Jantrao, if I understood you correctly, we use them as absolute directions in Finnish. So if you have to go to "kaakko" (south-east), you'd head between South and East no matter which way you were standing originally.

re: "By the way, where the sun rises changes a bit over the months, but our definition of the East does not."

Just wanted to add to that: this far north (in Finland) it actually changes a lot. Right now (around midsummer) it rises a lot "before" east and sets a lot "after" west even here in Helsinki. Of course, in the north of the country the sun just keeps circling around the sky.

Chris, you can work around your pop-up ban. For quotes, type {Q} (but using square brackets) just before and {/Q} just after. {i} and {/i} for italics, and {b}{/b} for bold. For a link, you do {L=brief description of website}http://www.whatever{/L}. Replace my curly brackets with square brackets in all cases. Thanks to DianaHaddad and shilgia for cluing me in on this long ago.

should that be clueing? I guess so. They both look wrong.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Chris, you can work around your pop-up ban.<hr></blockquote>

#36 Thanks, but it's no longer an issue though I will keep your expedient in mind. I wrote #34 at my girlfriend's parents' house in Savonlinna (where we spent the midsummer weekend), but now I am back in Helsinki for the beginning of "Finnish for Foreigners 2." Judging by the first few lessons this morning, I can say with confidence that the next three weeks will be rather harder than the last three have been.

CK