Boomers Downsize for Retirement Abroad

I agree with some statements above. Don't make it permanent, take you time.
A couple of examples among people I know:

(1) Lived in country X for two years. Decided they liked it. Invested all their savings in a 3-storey house. Huge kitchen, 2 bathrooms on each floor, big parking space and a swimming pool. Their idea was to run B&B. They haven't had one single guest since the start in May 2007. They can't afford to run the place any longer and decided to put it on the market. No way they can get their money back, not even close.

(2) Lived in a country Y for half a year and decided she liked it. Started her own beauty parlour. Went back to home country and sold apartment. The business in the new country turned out unseccessful - too much work for very little money. Now, can't go back to to live in her home country as the real estate market went up 30% within a year.

(3) Went to live in country Z. After several trips she decided it was much cheaper, she liked the climate and food. A year later Pound Sterling was 20% down to Euro. Very difficult to make the ends meet. The pension is just enough for basic living. An unexpected bill or car repair becomes a big problem. No travel.

They are all people like everyone else, with professional careers behind, ceertainly not stupid. Still, as they discovered, there is a room for new mistakes.

Wayworn, you say this: Take Spain for example. An apparently first world, democratic country. Nevertheless, a law was passed which gave real estate developers the right to claim land from existing owners as part of their development plans. If you do a little Googling you will find all kinds of examples of ex-pats who had bought land and/or a house 10 years ago, who are now being told a street is going to go through where their swimming pool is. That a development of 20 houses is going to be built on the 10 acres they thought they owned but are being told they must sell for peanuts or in some cases for no compensation whatsoever

Do you honestly not understand that we have had the same law in the United States for longer than my lifetime, and I am not young?

The poster is moving to Panama from the United States. In the United States, yes, the level of corruption is such that if you go toe to toe with a wealthy real estate developer, you will lose. Next question? If I thought the person was giving up some marvelous economic protection, I would argue differently. The person is moving from the United States. She is not giving up anything except Medicare benefits -- and increasing numbers of doctors refuse to treat Medicare patients. There is a very real chance that she is better off and will live longer in Panama.

Peachfront, how many foreign countries have you lived in? You are talking about something of which you have no personal experience. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, but it does mean your opinion has less weight.

Did you miss where gypsytoes wrote, "I've also witnessed a mass migration of expats from Costa Rica into Nicaragua and Panama after they lost their life savings with "The Brothers" , or the pensionado visa requirements changed.

Panama lowered the number of days from 90 days to 30 days, that one can visit. As a result, expats living in Panama as permanent tourists, could no longer just hop the border to have their visas renewed. I think Panama has changed the visa back to 90 days, now. For a while there was a panic among expats that would visit their vacation homes for 90 days, then return to their home countries."

Your simple minded belief that the same could happen in the USA as has happened to ex-pats in Spain, is naive beyond belief. All kinds of things can and do go wrong in these countries. You have no idea of whether the OP would be better off or live longer in Panama. I find it extremely irresponsible of you to suggest that.

The bottom line is that you have no experience living in foreign countries.

Wayworn, the bottom line is that you don't understand U.S. law or the law of eminent domain. You give the example, which apparently shocks you, of an ex-pat in Spain being subject to eminent domain. In the United States, everybody is subject to eminent domain. I'm guessing that in Spain, as in any other country, that if a highway must be built, it must be built whether the property seized is from an ex-pat or from a Spanish citizen whose family has lived there for a thousand years. In other words, you are screaming how terrible it is that someone's land can be seized for eminent domain to build a new road, without any awareness that this is already the law, and pretty much always has been the law, in the United States. I know people, gosh, right here at home, who have had to sell their property (or what remains of it) for new roads, levees, developments, etc. If you think this only happens in the Spanish speaking countries, you need to get out more. Seriously.

You are the one who raised the issue about someone having a road built where they had a swimming pool on their property in Spain. That's why I quoted you directly, because I thought your comment so odd that I was afraid of being accused of taking it out of context if I didn't use your own words.

Now I'll admit it freely. I don't sit around going boo hoo because I had a swimming pool in a foreign country and there was a need for a road and my swimming pool wasn't considered sufficient cause to block an entire road for a community. I do know people who have had to sell their property to permit the expansion/improvements of the levees right here in Louisiana. Are they going boo hoo that they were ripped off? I think many of them wish their property had been purchased and the improvements done considerably sooner. Some 1,300-plus people would still be alive if they had.

I will freely admit that there were at least two con artists, the Brothers, in Costa Rica. How many con artists are working right now in Florida? In addition, Florida and much of the Southern U.S. has a huge violent crime problem that causes considerable problems for older people.

The hurricane/natural disaster risk is also pretty substantial this time of century in the U.S.

I don't see the need to pour cold water all over gypsytoes' plans -- especially when the objections offered just don't seem to be "serious." Wow, is there eminent domain in Panama (or is it Spain? you don't seem to be sure), well, so there is in the United States also. Are there con artists in Costa Rica? No kidding, well, so there are con artists here at home. If you're going to offer an objection to the move, let it be a serious objection. A con artist is not more terrible because he speaks Spanish.

"All kinds of things can and do go wrong" is not a serious objection. "All kinds of things can and do go wrong" to everyone who lives long enough, whether they travel or not. I wouldn't mind your negativity so much if you had a more serious example than your friends in Spain who had a road built where they had a swimming pool. Or worse, that it was friends of a friend who had this happen -- and maybe it didn't even happen at all?

Peachfront, if you want to contest what I said about Spain, first you should try doing a bit of Googling and seeing what I am talking about. If you Google, 'Spain land grab' you will find plenty of information. Here is one you can start with.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2005/04/17/wspain17.xml

It is NOT the same as eminent domain in the USA at all. It is NOT about a right of way for a road. It is about a developer having YOUR land re-zoned, taking your land for little or no money and to add insult to injury, then you being FORCED to pay for the street, the sewers, the lighting, etc. that he puts on your land.

It is not about 1 person or one house or swimming pool or piece of land. It is about THOUSANDS of people. I am well aware of eminent domain. There are only some similarities to what is happening in Spain. Eminent domain is about a state or federal government taking private land for PUBLIC use. It isn't about a developer taking your house and building condos on the land instead.

Nor am I shocked about what has happened in Spain. Far from it, it simply proves what I have always said. Buying in a foreign country is full of risk for a foreigner. Americans may think eminent domain and the way some developers and corrupt politicians use it to further their own aims is shocking but it's nothing compared to what is happening in Spain.

But all that aside, unless you have lived in some foreign countries and have first hand experience of how things work when you are an ex-pat, you really don't know what you are talking about. So answer the question. How many countries have you lived in? What qualifies you to make the statement, "There is a very real chance that she is better off and will live longer in Panama."

I have lived in several countries and I would NEVER make that statement even if I had lived in Panama for 10 years. I've SEEN what kind of things can happen.

wayworn...think chavez ravine...eminent domained & given for a song to walter omalley to bring the dodgers to los angeles...main reason i hate the dodgers to this day...5 generations of hispanics kicked off their land for a guy whose grandfather was an immigrant

...modern day with much inbetween....petco park & surrounding area of downtown san diego...eminent domain for private developers...old stadium still standing that held 70,000 replaced by a 40k capacity stadium with corporate skyboxes...so much for the common folk

...supreme court ruled in recent years that eminent domain can be used for private development & the betterment? of the community

...eminent domain in the states is no longer just for freeways & public parks...what a shame

...but you are pretty much right that you have a better chance of getting your property taken away from you in developing countries...but as you know there are always exceptions

...the need to hedge bets gets more important as the hair gets grayer

Eminent domain still has that caveat of 'public betterment'. No such caveat applies in Spain. Eminent domain also requires the government to take your land and compensate you. No such requirement exists in the case of Spain, the developer takes title to your land directly.

The developer applies for a re-zoning of the land from low density agricultural to high density urban. You know nothing about it, no public notice, no right to a hearing before a zoning change, etc. The land is re-zoned. The developer then applies for a building permit to build (example) a high rise apartment building on your land. No notice, no hearing, again. He gets the permit and then comes knocking on your door. What happens from here varies but typically, you are told you will be given little or no compensation for your land (if the developer is building right on top of it, you will get something). If he is putting streets, sewers, lighting on it, you will have to PAY for the cost of installing them. In some cases people have been paid (example) $100k for their land and home (worth $200k the year before on the open market), while at the same time being forced to pay $150k for streets and sewers crossing their land. Not a road, a street in a housing development which normally the developer would pay to put in. All of these financial transactions are between the land owner and the developer, not government at any level.

Eminent domain is far from the same. There may be instances where people locally want to argue that whatever the land is being taken for is not for public betterment but it's arguable one way or the other. In Spain it's just outright theft in anyone's opinion except the developer's. It is actually against the law but because the law was so poorly written, there are loopholes which are being exploited.

The real issue is whether the OP has been to Panama since making this decision four years ago. I made the same decision at about the same time, and went back to Panama City this year, just to see what had changed. I had read about rising costs and other changes, and wanted to see for myself. Rents had tripled in Panama City, and gone up even more than that, I was told, in many of the beach communities. I decided I could no longer afford it.

The visa stay period did revert to 90 days. However, most expats get the pensionado visa, which comes with a guaranteed renewal for a couple of years, and is permanent if the income requirement is met from a government pension.

The OP mentions wanting the same kind of simple lifestyle that she had on Omotepe, and I really don't know if that is possible. It certainly isn't possible at the same cost.

As for corruption, Panama is less corrupt than many other countries. America is amazingly free of corruption, in that at least the average person is not faced with having to pay bribes as part of everyday life. The police actually try to solve crimes and when they are supposed to be on patrol, they are. Compare this with Penang, where the police sit in coffee shops during their shifts, or Guatemala, where they participate in robberies. Really, have any of the people who talk about corruption in the US had a police officer hit them up for a bribe when pulled over for speeding? In Thailand, that is the norm. And how many of you got your driver's license by paying a bribe rather than passing the test, which is what happens in both Thailand and Panama?

Spain, for one country has lots of real estate scams.

There's one that was built on illegal land, and with no plumbing. Just a shell and a life savings dream.

#38...i don't know if a driver's license in thailand or panama is a right...but in the united states it is not...a state's driver's license is a privilege ...meaning you have to earn it & retain it at the pleasure of the government

..on bribes...in the united states we call bribes political campaign contributions