Winter in Europe

Dump Glasgow, Dijon, Marseille, Nice, Brussels (a day trip here, or passing through for half a day maybe if you must), Lisbon. Porto only makes it in by a hair because I like port, although unless you spend some time in north western Spain (Santiago de Compostela is a nice enough place to add) it's pretty out of the way from the rest of your trip.

Oxford and Versailles are easy enough day trips. For Versailles, there doesn't seem to be much about the place that might encourage you to stay longer. Oxford is a bit nicer, if you wanted to extend a bit.

Loire valley is worth longer than a day.

I'm assuming that when you say, for example, "Madrid", you are considering the area around it as well as the city itself, is that right?

Winter in Europe away from ski areas is rarely likely to cause you any problems in terms of places to stay etc, so you could just go where the wind blows, if you felt like it.

for a christmas market include Stuttgart. Good place anyway and good smaller towns to visit around, like esslingen, Ludwigsburg, Tuebingen. Some good museums and galleries in this area too.

Your problem with asking on a forum for places to go or drop is that it's all subjective. Unlike #1, I would not drop Lisbon -- I think it's a great place and would choose it over Porto.

You say you have post-its in places that sound good to you but it definitely looks like a list of the usual suspects. Given your interests, go through again and decide why you chose those places and try to whittle down a bit that way. Your French list doesn't have anything I would consider a "smaller town".

Aaronmsl - Yikes! Will take a closer look at those places and see if there's any we could cull... I would prefer to drop Porto than Lisbon as it's not so far out of the way and it's one of the places that really stood out to me. Versailles will definitely be a day trip; still looking more into Oxford at this point. And yes, we intend to stay for several days in bigger cities like Madrid and explore the region as well as the city.

Snatch - Thanks! Will look at Stuttgart. The Lonely Planet guide doesn't seem to have much good to say about it apart from as a base to explore nearby towns, but I suppose that just goes to show that it's not a good idea to rely on one source of info.

bjd - Obviously I'll be taking any recommendations with a grain of salt - to use the same example, I'm reluctant to drop Lisbon for Porto based on one person's experience. There's just an overwhelming amount to see even just in these countries, and it's difficult to decide where to begin. Listening to other people's recommendations seems like a useful thing to do, even if later research shows we want to do something differently in the end anyway. I'm also finding it really hard to get excited about smaller towns based on guide books, which tend to focus more on main attractions and don't really 'sell' small places as well, which is probably why no smaller towns in France caught my eye. Hearing from other people's experiences is just a way to start sorting through that; it isn't intended to define our whole journey.

On that note - any small French towns to recommend? I hear the South of France is quite nice in winter, but don't know much about it and am unsure where to begin. Regions or towns known for their food/wine/landscapes would be ideal.

feedback on what should stay and what should go

No, you don't need feedback on this. That's not the problem.

It's a bit overwhelming
unsure where to begin
it's difficult to decide

I'll limit myself to a few comments about planning in general terms

interested in food and wine

Frequently mentioned, but for the most part irrelevant when planning an itinerary.

we can book transport in advance

This is relevant only if you want to take advantage of early-booking fare reductions, and even these are only relevant for longer trips on the high-speed trains, overnight sleepers, etc (or flights if used). By and large, the regional train systems work on the same principle as city bus transport. Ticket in hand you get on the next vehicle heading in the direction you want to go. No reservations needed and often not even possible.

This matter of getting from A to B brings us to the 'itinerary'. Right now you don't have one. You have a list of countries and a small number of cities pegged for each.

What you want to do is plot a rough route - literally, on a map. That's a quick way to evaluate the efficiency of you travel logistics.

Then, figure on one day travel to get from any one point to the next.
> Lisbon as it's not so far out of the way

Is that what you think? Then you need to take each of those travel days and check the travel times with train timetables.This will also help give you a sense of distance, the territory you are covering.

Notice I'm not mentioning at this point the time spent anywhere. 'How much time in...?' may be the second most useless question to ask at this stage. In fact, you can leave this question for when you're actually travelling.

Once you have the rough route and have taken out all of the approximate travel time, you'll have a better sense of what you have left for the visiting-places part of the trip. That will give you a better overview for the rest of the planning.

finding it really hard to get excited about smaller towns

There's no big virtue about smaller towns as such, with the exception of those which have - for example - well-preserved medieval architecture. In general, the point of this smaller town thing is to move around more slowly and spend more time in rural areas. But this, I suggest, takes some practice. It is not something easy to do for novice travellers focusing on the so-called 'musts'.

Your style and pace of travel and interests play a big role here. Perhaps this is something you figure out once you're moving around.

have come to what we think is roughly the final plan

As I said, it's not much of a plan. But do you need anything else? Given a rough route to follow and being conscious of travel time as such, most of my own planning takes place when I'm actually on one of my trips. Probably I have a 3 week moving window which is worked out in detail. With each week behind me I fill in the details for another week still to come.

If I decide ahead of time that I want to divide the total trip up into regional blocks - a month here, a month there - I still follow the same strategy with the one additional detail that there are a number of pivot points built into the general itinerary.

Obviously I'll be taking any recommendations with a grain of salt

Hmmmmm..so why post here?

Where in Aust are you from? Have you experienced Europe winter before??? UK, France, Germany, Belgium can be very very cold for those who who are not used to it.

PhiMeow - I think that other people's opinions are a good starting point, and gets me thinking about places that travel guides might only skim over. I'm not going to dismiss advice entirely otherwise I wouldn't bother posting on here, but I'm not going to just take every bit of advice I'm given at face value without looking further into it. Just as I started with a Lonely Planet guide, but am looking into other sources information (such as this forum) rather than taking an itinerary exactly from that. Don't worry, your recommendations aren't going to waste!

I'm from Perth - it's winter here now and it's rare that I need to wear anything warmer than a light cardigan so I'm sure that I'll find Europe very cold. It's the only time that we have though, and I'd rather rug up with some warm clothes and explore these countries than miss out. I've travelled Japan in the winter and found it really enjoyable, although I know it's nowhere near as cold. I'm hoping it's mostly a matter of bringing the right clothes and the right attitude? My husband is studying teaching next year and after that it's unlikely we'll be able to take more than two weeks of holidays at any time of year other than around Christmas, so I figure I just need to get used to dealing with Northern Hemisphere winters.

BthDth - It's a better plan than what I had a few days ago, and even just the advice I've gotten here so far is helping me shape a better idea of what will work :) I'm not sure how to plot a rough route without deciding at least roughly what the main points on this route will be? That's why I've started with places of interest, then looked at what kind of route I can do based on those. I've stuck them all onto a Google Map if you're interested. I think that dividing up the trip into regional blocks and planning the specifics as we go or just a couple of weeks in advance is a good idea, although I especially want to pin down the Christmas season since I assume pretty German towns at Christmas time might book up pretty quickly. I will look a bit closer at travel times and see if anything needs to be cut on that basis.

I'm not sure how to plot a rough route without deciding at least roughly what the main points on this route will be?

That's it, that's what I meant. A few anchor points, then connect the dots in as efficent way possible. This can be good enough to figure out the practicalities of moving around. And it gives you a focus.

What I was encouraging you to do was to not worry too much about a day-by-day filling in the gaps. Some people try to plan a trip down to the day, but this seems to create more planning stress than anything else.

Once you have this general route, you can travel along it, taking as much or as little time as you wish along the way -- maybe have a few get-here-by points to guide the timeline. Then work on the details as you go, if you want the freedom and flexibility.

I especially want to pin down the Christmas season since I assume pretty German towns at Christmas time might book up pretty quickly

Yes, these are the sorts of practical details which deserve and require some pinning down. Although, the issue for me would have more to do with picking an interesting base over a quiet period whn many things are closed. Over Christmas people either stay home or go to winter ski (or summer sun) resorts. I wouldn't expect to find big problems finding accommodation in your average German town, or even those known for their Christmas markets.

Chisa - each to their own, as noted. I didn't think much of anywhere in Portugal, and I've never been vaguely tempted to think about going back. As mentioned, the only reason I'd think about going to Portugal is the port, of which I still have some that I bought in Porto over 10 years ago ageing away happily in a back cupboard some where (I choose to try to forget exactly where, else I'd probably just drink it!). I'm not sure what's caught your eye about Lisbon, but the one piece of advice I'd give any travelling person is go to places that have things that interest you. If Lisbon is one of those places for you, then I'd say you should go there.

I wouldn't expect to find big problems finding accommodation in your average German town, or even those known for their Christmas markets.

I don't know about all German markets, but an exception to this may be Cologne. The year I went, even trying to book accomodation about 6 weeks in advance meant paying ridiculous amounts of money or, as was the option I went for, staying in Dusseldorf (this is hardly super inconvenient, by the way, just worth bearing in mind).