Amsterdam coffee shops

Thanks for your post, Quailia. I didn't attend that presentation, but I remember having read about it and about how the gemeente has since been trying to rid Amsterdam of its image as sex & drugs paradise. I'm not sure though if that is a sign of a swing back to the right (again: given that Amsterdam, at least as long as I remember, been a very "red" city dominated by social-democrats and other leftist parties, I don't quite understand what "back" means here), unless "right" is considered by definition as a bad thing. Maybe it is indeed all about the money, but whatever the reason, personally I would support any attempt to discourage drug tourism.

OTOH, the article posted by Tony in the OP wasn't merely about potential effects of the new policies on drug tourism in Amsterdam, but also about the situation in the border areas. The proposed banning of foreigners from coffee shops is, if I understand correctly, in the first place an attempt to rid border towns like Maastricht, Venlo, Roosendaal, Glanerbrug and Terneuzen of the drug trade and related crime. Restrictions on coffee shops in Amsterdam are probably more of a side-effect of that policy, and from the city council's point of view, a convenient one. I cannot imagine, however, that all coffee shops in Amsterdam will become off-limits to foreigners, if only because that would create a more massive problem, namely illegal trade (locals could make a nice amount of money by legally - for lack of a better word - buying weed and re-selling it to foreigners at a hefty markup); and while the city would perhaps be happy to see fewer drug tourists, they wouldn't want to get rid of all of their money, I guess.

The changes in political climate are something of a touchy subject, but rather than defining this in traditional terms of left and right, I'd say that what we've seen in the past decade or so is a widespread (albeit vague) discontent among voters, which explains why parties like SP and PVV - who tend to be quick to point out social problems but never propose any feasible solutions for them - have become so popular in recent years even though their points of view couldn't be more different from each other. It is also interesting to hear that anti-islam party PVV has so many followers in provinces where you hardly find any muslim.

As for the anti-foreigner crap: apparently all it took for this to calm down was one economic crisis, and it seems most people are aware that this economic crisis can be blamed on a lot of things, but not on immigration. Maybe people realized they have more important concerns in their lives than the presence of a mosque at the other side of town; maybe they realized that their lives are hardly ever affected by the presence of immigrants in this country. Or maybe they have actually met some foreigners, and realized that it's easy to hate an anonymous group of people like the Moroccans, but hard to hate an individual like their new colleague Abdul.
Although I have never voted for him (or Wilders), I could understand why Pim Fortuyn became so popular around the year 2000. If you allow me the simplification, I think at that time a lot of labour- and lower middle class people had become fed up with the political elite who, from their all-white neighbourhoods in Bloemendaal or the Amsterdam canal belt, naively kept stressing on the cultural enrichment brought about by the influx of immigrants. I remember how a couple of politicians and leftist opinion makers even made references to WWII at the suggestion that immigrants should learn the Dutch language to better integrate into society - while anyone living in Spangen, Laakkwartier or any of the other neighbourhoods that had seen a massive influx of immigrants could see that lack of knowledge of Dutch language and culture had in reality only led to segregation.

I was also ashamed of the authorities treating immigrants by default as if they were poor children unable to care for themselves, and of the system that allowed those seeking asylum for economic reasons to continue their quest for a residence permit forever while there was hardly any space left in AZCs to accommodate new refugees. I was/am equally ashamed of the reflex in attitudes after Pim Fortuyn's rise, when right-wing politicians seemed to be competing with each other in a race to insult citizens of foreign descent, by labeling all immigrants as parasites and all muslims as potential terrorists.

After one decade of unpleasant debates between leftist and rightist parties, too many of which included - depending on the speaker - very distasteful references to nazis and terrorists, it seems like the situation is finally reaching some sort of balance. Or at least, I hope it is.

As for the anti-foreigner crap: apparently all it took for this to calm down was one economic crisis, and it seems most people are aware that this economic crisis can be blamed on a lot of things, but not on immigration.

I don't think we're done yet. At the moment the economic crisis is blamed on a cast of thousands - and I agree it hasn't so far been blamed on immigrants.

But if/when we go through major redundancies I'm pretty sure the usual rhetoric will be trotted out about "foreigners" taking "our" jobs once again.

Agree with you about Fortuyn as well, I didn't agree with all that he said but he could have been the start of some sensible intelligent discussion about cultural values - instead we have an intellectually insulting inburgeringscursis, with a test that Dutchies themselves fail at the end of it. (Expect more griping about this in two years - I suspect IND will want me to do the damn thing for my next residency card).

As for the drug policy - I think changes there are largely commercial/business based so it's not a case of a "swing to the right" in a political party sense but could be seen as taking a capitalist approach putting business concerns above "liberal philosophy".

Imogenzedder, I was typing when you posted, so I only noticed your post #59 just now.

While I understand how frustrating it must be for you to deal with Dutch immigration authorities - who have been a PITFA from long before this "right-wing political shift", as some Dutch friends of mine and their non-EU spouses can attest - I'm not quite sure the coffee shop situation is a suitable metaphor for this sort of tightening of the rules. It's probably a gross over-simplification, but one could say the tightening of immigration rules is largely aimed at non-western foreigners, a group that doesn't come to the Netherlands for its coffee shops.
That said, I appreciate your efforts to learn the language and to get to know this country better. I really wish you good luck in dealing with the IND; they will probably keep you busy for a couple more months, but providing you have a job, studies or partner (in short, whatever IND considers a "good reason" to grant you residency) here, eventually you should be fine.

Most patrons of coffeeshops on the 'Dam are foreign, not local - barring foreigners is possibly an indirect way of barring the coffeeshops themselves
One can only guess as to what ulterior motives the authorities have, but as you can see in the BBC article that started this discussion, this is not about coffee shops "on the 'Dam" (which to locals means: "at Dam square", by the way, AFAIK only foreigners fighting to preserve coffee shops refer to the whole city by that - IMHO truly awful - expression ;-) ), but in all of the Netherlands, and as you may have heard, border towns like the ones I mentioned in #60 are facing a lot of nuisance because of the foreign patrons of their coffee shops.

I've just read some of the replies to the BBC article, by the way; a few quotes that struck me:
"This will absolutely deter me from travelling to the Netherlands. To me, this is their greatest draw - a symbol of true freedom"

"Some friends and I had planned on visiting the Netherlands for the 30th birthday of one of our close friends for the specific purpose of trying cannabis in a decriminalised environment. If we were not allowed to make the purchase there would be no reason to make the trip"

"One of the main reasons to visit is the liberal views of the country"

"Very interesting. This will stop lots of people from going there. I'm not saying that every tourist smokes, but that adds to the mystique of Amsterdam, together with the red light district and the Dutch people's liberal social attitude"

Now I consider myself as a fairly liberal person and I have met a lot of foreigners who are positively impressed by the liberal laws concerning drugs, but some of these replies are unbelievable. Apart from the forgiveable fact that all these posters don't seem to realize that Amsterdam is considered very liberal even by Dutch standards (I know several people who consider Amsterdam as a totally different planet), I am just as proud to see that my country's greatest draw is drugs, as I imagine a Thai would be when told the greatest draw of his country is the tranny bars in Pattaya. If those posters weren't so excruciatingly narrow-minded, their comments would almost insult me. All I can say is, I wouldn't shed a tear if any of these posters would cancel their trip to this country, that after all has nothing to offer apart from drugs-as-a-symbol-of-freedom.

I know several people who consider Amsterdam as a totally different planet

Oh so you've met my colleagues ;-)

I agree with the sentiment in your last paragraph.

he could have been the start of some sensible intelligent discussion about cultural values - instead we have an intellectually insulting inburgeringscursis, with a test that Dutchies themselves fail at the end of it
I agree with every single word of that, and this sums up my views perfectly. In the same way, I was appalled by the discussion we had here last year about dual nationality - started by Wilders questioning the loyalty of citizens of Turkish and Moroccan descent - and that resulted in a law forcing Dutch passport holders with dual Brazilian/Phillipine/Indian/Ukrainan/whatever nationality to give up either passport, while in the end the Turks and Moroccans were allowed to keep their dual nationality "because their home countries don't allow them to give up their passports" (since when do the Turkish and Moroccan governments have authority over immigration policy in the Netherlands?). In other words, the injustice and discrimination has just shifted to another group of persons, but it's still as alive and kicking as it was before the debate started; a debate, by the way, that must have been very insulting to those politicians of Turkish and Moroccan descent that were targeted by Wilders & Co - all excellent examples of immigrants who successfully adapted to Dutch society without denying their foreign descent, and didn't deserve to see Wilders question their loyalty to the Netherlands.

if/when we go through major redundancies I'm pretty sure the usual rhetoric will be trotted out about "foreigners" taking "our" jobs once again
Possibly, but there may be some fundamental differences compared to other crises. Simply said, this time it seems like a relatively high number of higher-educated employees is laid off, whose jobs aren't generally done by the groups of immigrants Wilders and his followers focus on. These persons are generally smart enough to realize that they didn't loose their jobs because there are many muslims in this country, and their anger and frustration is more likely to be directed to their CEO who rewards himself with a multi-million euro bonus at the end of the year.
I wouldn't expet a lot of resentment against non-western immigrants for "taking our jobs" among those who support Wilders. The anger may be directed at other groups, however, such as the Poles competing with local contractors in the construction business and who have got an unfortunate reputation for drunkness, causing nuisance to neighbours and getting involved in car accidents.

And.. how did that make.....you feel?

King Willy wound up in Northern Ireland, I believe.

They're still pissed, down south.

Irish lady in Seville, said->" Damn Protestants parade through other parts of town, with banners. And they wonder why their kids get beat up, at school!"

I am just as proud to see that my country's greatest draw is drugs

Aribo/Quailia do either of you drink alcohol? Imagine that it was illegal in your country, you had been arrested for consumption of it and had a criminal record for using a controlled substance for this. Imagine that this meant you could not get a good job in a good company and also meant that you could not travel to the USA and Canada.

Now imagine that the country just over the border had legalised drinking, and if you lived there, you would not have a criminal record and not have lost your freedoms of future employment and travel. You might just think that the country with less restrictions on your libteries was important.

The above (substituting marijuana for alcohol) is a reality for many people.

I also think it is sad that Amsterdam has become a drugs and sex tourist spot, but the problem is more to do with the criminality in people's home country rather than the legality in Holland.

I wouldn't expet a lot of resentment against non-western immigrants for "taking our jobs" among those who support Wilders. The anger may be directed at other groups, however, such as the Poles competing with local contractors in the construction business and who have got an unfortunate reputation for drunkness, causing nuisance to neighbours and getting involved in car accidents

You are right there, it's more against the imposing of other cultures (in Wilders case the muslim culture/religion) upon the western and all the political correctness madness that surrounds it, such as not placing any christmas trees in public spaces because it might offend a muslim.
The SP is more against the Polish workers, saying they are taking our jobs kind of stuff, however one has to admit the Poles work a lot harder and deliver much better work then the average Dutch worker

The above (substituting marijuana for alcohol) is a reality for many people.

I'm really trying to feel sympathy and failing.

Of all the freedoms that I think are worth fighting for in the world access to marijuana is not one I can care about. Sorry Greyhound, we're never going to agree on this.

Gawkabout, have you been drinking again? ;-)