Pinched from the Guardian - Green and pleasant land?

Never mind a tax on plastic bags, I'd like to see them banned, period.

And councils that will only empty your rubbish if it's bagged in plastic should all be fined huge sums, too.

Round where I live there are lots of people who walk dogs and carry bags for the dogs deposits.

They get pretty nasty with other dog walkers who refuse to pick up their dogs crap, even to the extent of reporting them to council.

When asked a neighbour who walks her dogs about this she responded that we all live here and why should it be spoiled by an ignorant SOB. Its pretty effective as see very few deposits left on the paths.

There's no way of talking about this without mentioning Thatcher's mindless "there is no such thing as society" delusion.<blockquote>Quote
<hr>But it is too easy to blame it all on Margaret Thatcher.<hr></blockquote>And just why is it so easy, Jeremy?

In this "me, me, me" nation - who really gives a damn about making a mess. But if someone else dares...

In Germany barely anyone buys the shop's (expensive) plastic bags. It's taken for granted that you take your own shopping bags with you when you go shopping (and all shops also sell cloth bags). Shops are also obliged by law to take back packaging - so if I buy anything with excessive packaging I dump it in the recycling bins provided before leaving the shop.

#13. You mean the "quick snippet of soundbite" extracted from this article :-

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

Prime minister Margaret Thatcher, talking to Women's Own magazine, October 31 1987

- Actually re-reading it after many years, it still seems accurate, especially if you think of society representing a group of people sharing a common culture or interest, etc. In fact one aspect of internet & modern comm's technology is that we may be (as an individual) more akin to others on the other side of the world (in a society role) rather than over the fence. I suppose this also begs the question, on a wider scale is the term "multicultural society" an oxymoron?

*I think it was John Humphries biography "Devil's Adocate" which highlighted the Thatcher/No society soundbite to explain the growing use of what I term cut & paste & ignore - effectively taking the most potent parts of a speech/article and highlighting them away from the body of the rest - the basis which actually gives the context.

#16.

This notion that individuals somehow form a working society fails for one simple reason. Man is inherently selfish. Yes, in an ideal world everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, would be a responsible citizen and do nothing to upset others - like dumping their own rubbish in public places. But we don't live in that ideal world. We live in a world where everyone puts themselves first, and society second. It only takes a few less-than-socially-aware people to bring down the tone of an area by dumping their crap on the street, and with fewer resources being spent on cleaning said street, it soon builds up.

And then you get clowns like Paxman, a vehement advocate of Tory low-taxation/low-public-spending, whining about the build-up of litter. Everybody would be a model citizen in PaxmanLand no doubt.

#17. morag, Throwing money at a problem does not necessarily solve it....just look towards the NHS for an example of Public spending going awry.

(See the Taxpayers Alliance for more proof on tax wastage).

Interestingly, I agree with most of what you say in a sense. I do however, think the vast majority go out of their way not to be selfish and do in fact "do the right thing". Be it putting rubbish in bins, wiping up dog shite, etc. Yet as you say there is the element you call the "less-than-socially-aware" but I believe not only are these people aware of the situation they do what they are doing as "two-fingers" up to the rest of us. Even worse on the litter front when they are surrounded by bins.

If that is the case then we need to address the root causes of litter - plastic bag usage, cellophane wrapping, etc. And maybe even consider banning the likes of chewing gum - 3p a sick to buy, approx. 10p to get it removed from walls/pavements according to a Radio 2 feature last week.

Hi moobie, I spend half my time in Paris. We get the bins emptied EVERY DAY. But there's still litter on the street, and mountains of dog-shit everywhere. So I totally agree that throwing money at cleaning up doesn't always work.

But people are people - and even if you tax bags etc (which is a great idea) some people will still go out of their way to make a mess. So we either live with the mess, or pay more tax (which will be loads more than is actually needed) and pay people to clean up the mess.

What we really want are politicians/public servants who can actually do these things efficiently. But that's not likely to happen anytime soon...

So it's more taxes I suppose.