About the islamic clothing pressure on women:
The wife of our current PM Erdogan gave an interview about 4 years ago to the Turkish newspapers which I find very sad but in a way summarizes the situation about the Islamic family pressure on dress.
When she was about ready to go to highschool which I am assuming to be when she was about 15,the men at her house ,the father,older brothers and uncles told her that she needed to cover her hair from now on .She refused to cover her hair and she was punished and banned from attending school.She was to be hold at her home all day long and she was not allowed to leave the house.She said that she had cried for days and resisted not wearing hijab but finally gave in because there was no one to support her .Ofcourse due to restrictions she did not cover her hair while at school but outside the school life she was all in Hijab dressing style untill today.Women like her eventually are forced to marry men like the ones in the family and this goes on and on from generation to generation.
I hardly ever think that a reasonable woman would choice to wear islamic clothing on her free will and live under this dress style forever.There are so many variables at stake here.None of these women have the luxury to dress up or dress down as GoldenOldie does when she travels.Once you are in you are in forever.Your entire social cirle and family expects you to live and behave under this conduct.After awhile the dress code becomes your personality and shapes the way you evaluate the rest of the world.You socialize with the people who dress like you do and you start dropping out of the secular world.None of this is the result of the free will rather the " choices" you make pushes you into another alternative lifestyle.Extremely difficult if not impossible to alter the situation so the big question is should we feel sorry for these women or do they deserve what they get?
>don't YOU dress according to "others' expectations"?
Not really. I have no expectations of how other people dress either, to be truthful.
GT - things are changing all over the world. Dress is an indicator of that change. You possibly feel more 'opressed' because you've lived for a proportion of your life in the USA, but many people in Turkey would not feel so oppressed.
Those that do, if they have any independence of spirit, will change their lifestyles regardless of social approval or not. I had to do this in my own life in England - marching for women's rights, etc.etc.
And yes, I stuck out like a sore thumb but regarded this as necessary given my personal choices.
I'm sure women in Turkey are no different.
Also, remember that the PMs wife was talking about her childhood; things have moved on since then.
I've met many Turkish women, both in hijab and without, who feel quite easy with their choices.
"You possibly feel more 'opressed' because you've lived for a proportion of your life in the USA"
Sorry,I do not get it ,what do you mean by that ?
"Those that do, if they have any independence of spirit, will change their lifestyles regardless of social approval or not, I had to do this in my own life in England "
Good for you but not everyone is you and Turkey is not England.You can also wear a T-Shirt in England saying "Proud to be gay" and walk on the streets but not in Turkey, even if homosexuality is not a crime in Turkey.:)
Also your environment is very important.
Many of these women do not come from environments where their call for independent spirit will be respected.
Remember honor killings?
Changing your lifestyle regardless of social approval is unthinkable if you do not have your economic independence.You need education to gain that economic independence which will be very unlikely if you are kept at home under the watchful eyes of your family members.
Not everyone has the revolutionary spirit neither the strenght as you do. :)
"So if some bloke chooses to wear singlet and swimming trunks on the beach, isn't that just as much his right to choose his clothing?"
You seem to miss the point that this is breaking Islamic dress code for men (and I don't give a ** if they do or not), but they would not tolerate their wives doing the same thing.
It's also easy for GO to do and dress as she likes - after all you can basically get away half the time in the UK without wearing anything (viz the Naked Hiker, or whatever he's called) - but even in the UK Muslim girls (inter alia) have been the victims of honour killings because they showed an independence of spirit.
Let's not keep this only to Islam; there are equally oppressive "clothing regulations" in fundamentalists of all religions, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc. The fact is that when a party with links to any of these comes to power, like the BJP in India, or the AK Partisi in Turkey, I get nervous, because they don't usually tolerate people of other opinions, never mind other religions (or none).
GT, Riceutin, Dudisimo your comments impress me. I agree with so much that has been said. We have a serious problem with rape and abuse in my country. It infuriates me when leaders talk about parents empowering and teaching girls in this regard but fail to mention that its the boys, men and societal norms that need to change. Patriarchal societies are a big problem. I've always felt if women are expected to cover up men have to as well. If women want to cover up it must be entirely their choice. There sits Mr. at the beach, naked except for his LARGE shorts ogling women while his wife suffers in the heat, sweat running down her face. Ugh!. Where's my vaporizing gun? Let's not even get started on honour killings and female circumcision.
I read an article in Turkish News about the massive amounts of 'secret' money coming into Turkey from countries like Saudi Arabia. The money is supposedly being used to fund the AKP, various projects and businesses. I fear for Turkey. Dudisimo I hope you are right that the people won't tolerate an Islamic State. The writer of the article likened it to cancer. By the time you see blood it's too late.
"Let's not even get started on honour killings and female circumcision."
I don't believe female circumcision has ever been a part of Turkish culture - it's African.
Honour killings are not - or should not ever be - approved of in Islam. However, they have formed part of tribal or clan cultures since time immemorial, and were certainly part of Sicily's culture up until the 1950s.
Even today the term 'shotgun wedding' is a literal reality in parts of the United States.
So, while abhoring the practice, don't let's get too smug about this. It was a part of 'western' culture in my lifetime and certainly in that of your parents'.
But I do so agreee with your comment about men's dress. After all, 'what's sauce for the goose ...'
" read an article in Turkish News about the massive amounts of 'secret' money coming into Turkey from countries like Saudi Arabia. The money is supposedly being used to fund the AKP, various projects and businesses"
This is not news really,this has been going on for many many years.Turkey is actually the" blacksheep "of the islamic world and needs to be re-shaped according to many Islamic countries.There is much power struggle going on here because if the Turkish model succeeds it could be bad news to many of the politicians/heads of states in the islamic countries.
GO I'm fully aware female circumcision is not Turkish. I mentioned this as one of the injustices to women. Smugness certainly doesn't come into it. Believe me the culture of treating woman badly is alive and well in my country.
GT you are right. I'm sure this is an old problem. I hope they never succeed in their aims of turning Turkey into an Islamic State. By the way I visited Izmir in May. I liked it but unfortunately it rained mud. I will have to return to enjoy it in sunshine. Love the ferries.
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