riceuten - isn't it some of each?
If I walk the street at night drunk, waving cash around then I'm more likely to get robbed. Of course in an ideal world, we would change robbery behaviour so robbery is no more. On the other hand, in today's world its prudent to be discreet and sober in some places at night.
I've never been accused of assaulting a women, and I can't see inside the mind of men who molest women at night. But I could believe that a drunk woman in tight top, mini skirt, fishnet stockings and high heels is more likely to be harassed than a sober woman in a hijab. So if a woman veils up then she's less likely to attact unwanted attention. Not sure liberation is the right word for it, but I can see there are non-religious reasons why a woman might choose not to flaunt all she has.
Well, not really
People should have the right to dress as they please, without any religious pressure to do otherwise.
People do not have and should not have the right to rob or assault people, however 'provoked' they are. Thankfully we are way beyond the years when a woman who wore a short skirt was deemed to be 'asking for it'. I have to say in London, a woman in a short skirt is less likely to be harassed (any more than a woman dressed any other way) than in other places. It probably says more about society and religion.
Interesting to hear that self-hatred is common in Turkey as well. In many Western countries it is political correct to have bad conscience about our history with Holocaust, slavery, colonisation to a degree that you should almost be ashamed of your own culture. That's also a reason why Western Europe has opened its gates to mass-immigration - it is a bit like paying back and not risking to be called a racist (which is the worst thing that can happen - it associates you with Hitler etc.)
I think Andrew makes a good thing about the word "Islamophobia". I hate the word because it indicates that there is nothing to be afraid which is indeed not true when polls come out that 35-40% of the young Western Muslims prefer to live under sharia-law. That means that while Muslims should be free to follow their religion I also understand the intolerance towards people that look like islamists because an Islamic state would also be built on intolerance and there would be severe lack of freedom for secular Muslims and the infidels. Moreover, there is this continuing violence or threat of violence against people (especially Muslims) daring to speak against the will of people like the members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir.
GT - I don't wear hijab in Britian because to do so would make me more - not less - noticeable.
And I don't feel the need to flaunt my Islam, instead I simply live it.
Having said that, the one time I DID wear it in London was after 9/11, when all the muslim women suddenly stayed indoors, because I felt there was a need for their sake to be seen out on the streets.
When they started coming back of course I took it off.
It was a very interesting experience; some people were very polite to me, and sympathetic, as if to say "we're not blaming YOU for this' and only one person was rude.
"GT - I don't wear hijab in Britian because to do so would make me more - not less - noticeable."
This is a very interesting statement because as an "islamophobic Turk" in Turkey I notice or pay attention to women wearing hijab around me all the time(needless to say always in a negative manner).
A topic like this raises so many issues.
The first time we ever hit Turkey it was clear that the vast majority of women who wore a scarf did so as part of their traditional 'working dress' in the fields rather than any religious statement - the maid in our small hotel who served breakfast wore a scarf that she would regularly take off or adjust in my presence, usually when she sat down with us to have a tea and a cigarette when breakfast was over, so it was pretty clear that she wasn't making a religious statement.
The vast majority of women who wear scarves in the area where I live are elderly, to put it mildly, and their daughters and granddaughters certainy never wear one.
What I find anachronistic about women wearing a hijab is that so many of them also wear tight-fitting tops and jeans, which rather seems to defeat the purpose. It's also noticeable that there's a sort of 'summer hijab chic' look - brightly coloured scarf and cotton/linen top and trousers - better I suppose than those who insist on wearing the Full Monty with dust coats that would look more suitable on Clint Eastwood, who often appear to be with men wearing nothing more than a singlet and shorts - big exposed belly and knees - not exactly the proper Islamic male dress code, as far as I am aware. The idea that men can wear what they like whilst women have to cover up in suffocating layers of clothing doesn't look very liberating in my book.
I'd also take issue with the statement that "However - in Islamic countries I always wear hijab, and this applies also to Turkey. Because I'm making a statement; I'm not a sex-seeking tourist." - in the first place the vast majority of postings on this forum and others concerning the experiences of women tourists in Turkey who are not wearing a hijab are positive rather than negative, so it would not appear to be that much of an issue; in the second place am I to take it that all the Turkish women I see every day in my village in the summer (some tourists, many who live and work here) wearing shorts and often with bare shoulders are "up for it"? I don't think so.
On one level my feeling is that I couldn't care less about the headscarf issue, but on another it's really an indication of where the AKP is going to take Turkey. The current situation with Gul standing for the Presidency looks very much like the tail wagging the dog, the AKP rank and file pushing its leadership into a position between a rock and a hard place. Any move towards an Islamic Republic would spell financial ruin for vast tracts of Turkey, and I really can't see the people around here standing for it.
"men wearing nothing more than a singlet and shorts - big exposed belly and knees - not exactly the proper Islamic male dress code, as far as I am aware. The idea that men can wear what they like whilst women have to cover up in suffocating layers of clothing doesn't look very liberating in my book."
Yes - I have issues with that, too ;-))
#15, I don't see the issue here if everyone chooses their clothing of their own free will.
GoldOldie says she robes up because she chooses to, not because someone's forced her. So if some bloke chooses to wear singlet and swimming trunks on the beach, isn't that just as much his right to choose his clothing?
From a practical point of view, a women may dress modestly to discourage the amorous advances of strange men. I'm not sure so many men would take trouble to discourage amorous advances from passing women.
Fundamentally, the issue is - do women choose this style of clothing through their own free will, or through local society's expectations, and/or family (presumably male) pressure? This is where the AKP come in. If they shift - through domination of the political process and levers of power - public expectations such that women who do not conform to their views, are forced through expectations and risk of social exclusion to wear conservative style clothing. I think is the strategy of a significant minority within the AKP, who view Ataturk's legacy as a apostate abomination, and wish to move Turkey closer to a theocracy or at least a nation with a significant theocratic input to policymaking.
Witness the AKP's efforts to criminalise adultery in the last parliament if you require proof that the party are just a continuation of the Welfare/Refah Party and their hardline followers; Erdoðan's comments criticising New Year celebrations as unIslamic, as was shaking hands with women (!). When he lost a court case trying to stop the ban on women wearing headscarves, he then attempted to stuff the judiciary with Koranic school graduates, and was quoted as saying that the courts had no right to rule on issues such as the headscarves, only the ulema (Muslim clerics); the AKP have also restricted alcohol sales in Istanbul restaurants. I could go on, but you get a flavour of what is happening.
Part of the problem is the Turkish election system that have allowed a party with less than 40% of the vote to have over 60% of the seats (in the last parliament). And of course, the 10% clause specifically designed to exclude the Kurdish minority representatives via HADEP/DEHAP (much good that this has done them now they stood as independents). This has taken away the secular conscensus that existed before the AKP came to power, spurred on by corruption in ANAP/CHP and other parties, no doubt.
As regards Andrew's point about "a women may dress modestly to discourage the amorous advances of [...] men" - surely the issue is the men, and not the dress. Men are the ones who need educating, and women should not have to cover up to do that !
"the issue is - do women choose this style of clothing through their own free will, or through local society's expectations, and/or family (presumably male) pressure? "
Riceuten - don't YOU dress according to "others' expectations"? Those of fashion, for example.
And -
"I have to say in London, a woman in a short skirt is less likely to be harassed (any more than a woman dressed any other way) than in other places."
Do you know, I've been harrassed more in London than in any ME country? And I don't even wear short skirts. AND I'm in my 60s. [Not to say I'm a ravishing beauty - my next door neighbour got propositioned ny a customer just last week; she's short, fat and 75 , he was 90!]
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