Islamophobia in Turkey

If you think that Islamophobia only exists in the western world,think again.This very interesting article was published in the Turkish Daily News last week.Think of it as a self criticism of the secular Turks( me included)

I would love to hear the opinions of those foreign nationals who travel to Turkey or live in Turkey and observe this sociological aspect of the Turkish society.

Islamophobia in Turkey: A kind of self-hatred ?

In my opinion, the term “Islamophobia” is insufficient for and incapable of explaining the situation in Turkey. “Islamophobia”, a term created to describe the Western reaction to Islam, does not operate with the same clarity in the Turkish context.

For Westerners, Islam is a totally external entity, something completely foreign, with Muslims in Europe and the U.S. representatives of this foreign culture. However, in the Turkish context we are talking about a predominantly Muslim society in which some people have a strong dislike or even hate toward devout Muslims and public manifestations of Islam.

Sometimes these feelings are so strong that there are those who would rather experience another coup than see religious people in the government. We can call a Westerner Islamophobic for his or her reaction to something totally external to his or her culture, but the term does not work when describing a reaction to something one has been raised in or at least surrounded by his or her whole life.

I suggest a new word be forged for this phenomenon in the Turkish context, although I am not able to create it at the moment. However, to help produce this new word I would like to share my ideas with you by thinking aloud. With all due respect to secular people in Turkey, and apologizing in advance for any inconvenience this article may create, I will start my brainstorming.

I have a tendency to think that whenever we show a strong emotional reaction toward something, a reaction out of proportion to the situation, we should look inside ourselves to find the root cause of this reaction.

Why and how some people in Turkish society built up these strong negative feelings toward devout Muslims? How did these otherwise intelligent and sophisticated people become myopic when it comes to Islam and Muslims in Turkey? How did democratic people, highly tolerant in respect of many different things in their lives, become so intolerant toward the lifestyles of Muslims? Why do we see analyses of political Islam every day, speculations on hidden agendas, and discussions of many related things that are far from the realities of this country?



A new description is needed

As I said earlier, for Westerners Islam and Muslims are totally external subjects and therefore “phobia” can be an accurate term to explain and understand their reactions. However, how can we explain individuals' fear, dislike, abhorrence, or hate toward something in which they have been raised? As I also said above, this is a kind of thinking aloud with no claim of being scientific at all, but I have a hypothesis about these strong emotions. In my view, Islamaphobia in Turkey represents a kind of self-hatred or at least self-dissatisfaction.

We have quite a Western lifestyle in Turkey . We drink alcohol, our relations with the opposite sex are relaxed, and the way we dress and behave are quite Western. In Turkey no one interferes with our lifestyles. However, when we see a woman swimming in the sea with a head to toe swimsuit on, or crowded group of women with headscarves, we Turks become very angry! Why we are so irritated with this? Do they remind us that we are not Western enough, that we have strong roots in the East? Or maybe something closer, more private? Do they tap into our emotional baggage we still carry from the struggle with our parents who were devout whereas we became atheists or non-practicing Muslims? Are we “latent Muslims” who could not resolve our intellectual and emotional struggle with Islam? Do these people represent our repressed side?

I think we must ask ourselves these and other similar questions. When I read some comments by distinguished secular intellectuals in Turkey, I cannot stop thinking that for them the only solution is that all devout Muslims become secular; that Muslim women relinquish their headscarves, or there will be no peace in Turkey! Is our peace based on the idea that some people in our society must change their beliefs and religious practices so they better resemble us? Can we accept something like this?

We do not have to like devout Muslims but they also have the right to lead their lives in accordance with their beliefs. People have the right to believe what we think is total nonsense, and to do things we find nonsensical as well. In my opinion, freedom of religion is one of the key freedoms necessary for Turkey to be completely democratic because in this way we will accept that people who, in our opinion believe in nonsense and lead their lives accordingly, are also adults and no one has the right to force them to live a certain way. I can hear the objections – “we are not against the devout Muslims or any religion but we are against political Islam!” But the problem is that in Turkey, people's attempts to lead their lives in a manner suitable to their beliefs are being seen and labeled as the manifestation of political Islam!

The question remains, do we really, objectively see any danger that a religious state will be established in Turkey, or is it our very strong dislike of the Muslim lifestyle that leads us to smell danger in the wind that will justify our hatred toward…ourselves perhaps ?

I think people are jittery, because Iran used to be very much like Turkey, but a corrupt government and a bad economic situation lead to the imposition of an Islamic theocracy against most people's wills (I partly blame the Tudeh (Communist) Party of Iran for this, for their 'strategic alliance' with the mullahs. Most people wanted to do away with the Shah, but few, I think, wanted the Ayatollah as Supreme Leader.

I support the 'right' of people to practice religion, but I do not support the 'right' of a religion to impose its political will on people, as has happened in other countries - Saudi Arabia, Israel, Ireland, Poland to name but a few.

I have no doubt that, unchecked, some elements of the AK Partisi would impose a need for women to wear the headscarf in public. If you talk with some political islamists, such as Hizb-Ul-Tahir, they view any element of opposition to Islamicization as 'Islamophobia' from non-Muslims, to apostasy from Muslims! The very concept of opposition to them is alien. God's word is the law and that is that.

What is needed is sufficient counterbalance to that, and sadly it seems the only manifestation of that in Turkey is the military; I had high hopes that the opposition in Turkey would make gains at the ballot box, but this has not happened. The opposition in Turkey is hopelessly divided.

A bit off topic, but why do we call it "Islamophobia"? A phobia is an irrational fear of islam. If someone calls me "Islamophobic", it means the phobia is my problem, I need help.

The fear of many secular Turks is a rational, well-founded fear, that a Islamist government would take away many of the freedoms currently enjoyed in Turkey, especially from women. That's not a phobia. To treat this fear, you don't need an army of psychologists offering behaviourla therapy. You need to neutralise the threat that people ratonally fear. A democratic tradition and a secular constitution are good starting points, and Turkey has both of these.

Where it becomes difficult is when democracy conflicts with civil rights. Riceuten highlights Poland. Roman catholicism is still widely practiced in Poland. I could believe that > 50% of the population do want to outlaw abortion on religious grounds - in other words, the reason Polish law bans abortion is not some defect in democracy but, rather, democracy at work - it really is what most people want. The problem is that this conflicts with what some people see as the right of any woman to kill her unborn baby.

In the UK, we have the reverse problem. Much of the UK public would favour a harsh clampdown on any remotely radical elements of Islam. Our recent terror attacks have shown the potential for UK muslims to become radicalised and then threaten the lives of innocent people. But for some reason the UK govt seems more concerned to uphold freedom of speech and other human rights of nasty groups such as Hizb-Ul-Tahir, than to execute the wishes of the electorate most of whom would happily see the radicals strung up tomorrow.

While I have nothing profound to add to this important discussion, I do have a few questions for those having more familiarity with Turkey than I do. To what extent are “class” and the differences between urban and rural cultures operative in this issue?

I ask after spending about a month in Turkey this summer over two trips. I did not go east of Ankara, and outside a week in Izmir and a few days in Istanbul, I stayed in the small towns close to archaeological sites. Whenever I made a new good Turkish friend—male and female, I was given a headscarf as a gift –indeed had it tied on my head. And my friends would step back, look at me, and say, “Now, (you are) Turkish.” I understand there were many variables at work in these little ceremonies—including language. But I was touched and impressed by this symbol of friendship that was clearly NOT restricted to religious identity.

Urban spaces are simply that. I made the mistake of wearing my rural Turkish clothes when I traveled to Izmir and checked into the Ege Palais. Initially I was treated as any poor person in the US, trying to check into an upscale Manhattan hotel.

I mean no disrespect here--the issue of secularism is certainly too important to be confined in or defined by a couple of anecdotes. And it seems fairly obvious to me that there are real problems with the label “secular elite,” which has the not so faint ring of the US slur “liberal elite.” But it seems to me that a very broad range of economic and cultural factors are in play here. I hope they do not become as exploited as they have been in US politics (red/blue state ad nauseum).

At any rate, more of what is at stake in the issue is explored in another TDN opinion piece currently displayed-- “Ankara’s Sad Situation.”

Could someone tell me what Turkish words are used for "secular," “secularism”?

""Could someone tell me what Turkish words are used for "secular," “secularism”?""

Secular is "Laik"
Secularism is "Laiklik"

Headscarf issue is a very complicated issue which even the Turks have not been able to solve yet.

In Turkey especially in the country side rural/small town Turkish women mostly use headscarfs but they are more of the traditional/folkloric variety than being the religious variety,parts of your hair might be visible plus your neck .Secular Tursk have no issues with that kind of headscarfs although it is seen mostly as a rural/small town unsophisticated dress style.
This is also the typical Babushka style which was or maybe still is prevalant in rural Russia,Ukraine,eastern Europe and Greece .I suppose when your friends say that "now you look typical Turkish "they mean "a typical Turkish country girl "not a typical islamic Turkish girl.

The islamists on the other hand wear their headscarfs very tight which cover both their necks and the throats and islamic headscarfs are usually in 2 layers.This is seen as a type of "political islamic clothing" by the secular Turks and it is much resented thus creating great stress.
Currently in Turkey you can not be a female civil servant or an employee in a public workplace(schools,hospitals,post office,courts,etc..) wearing that type of headscarf.You can not enter into military buildings or even school grounds wearing islamic headscarfs.This covers female students as well as female teachers or female school staff.If you are a female lawyer you will have to undo your islamic headscarf before you enter the court room.You can not wear islamic headscarfs in the parliament building either so technically you can not be a member of the parliament if you are wearing islamic headscarf.

When in Turkey by looking at the women and the way they are wearing their headscarfs(if they are wearing any ) you can tell if it is of a religious/political variety or just traditional variety.This helps you to separate the islamists women from the regular traditional country women.

Also in Turkey as you climb up the social ladder you will see less headscarfs. The more middle class,urban,educated the women get the less likely that they will be wearing any headscarfs unless they are islamists, so it is also kind of a class issue.

that article was really interesting, thanks for sharing.

yet i was surprised that ataturk wasn't mentioned

Very interesting and thoughtful, GT - but then, I wouldn't expect any less from you.

As a muslim convert living in Britain [where I do NOT wear hijab], may I make another observation.
There are three main categories of muslim women living in Britain; those who wear hijab as a natural addition to their [modest] dress, those who don't wear hijab but dress modestly, and those who completely cover up in long coats, socks, gloves [sometimes] and hijab.

I have observed these every day and read about cases in the news of women [girls, really] at school demanding to wear this latter dress. In my opinion [and it's only that] such women are actually making a point; they are DEMANDING to be seen as muslims, as 'something special' and there's a lot of pride involved in this and a lot of passive agression also.

While I can understand that many converts want to be 'more muslim than the muslims' I see in this a total misunderstanding of the Koran. Women's clothes are for their protection. Though we may rail against the attitude that a woman in a mini-skirt is 'asking for it', nevertheless such women ARE more vulnerable.

I. for one, get very annoyed if a man dressed in tight t-shirt and crotch-popping jeans tells me I should be wearing a hijab. [It happened, once - I was so spitting angry I didn't trust myself to speak!]

However - in Islamic countries I always wear hijab, and this applies also to Turkey. Because I'm making a statement; I'm not a sex-seeking tourist. [Don't argue; many people think 'westerners' are all looking for sex and I just want to disabuse them of that as far as I'm concerned; I'm not prepared to 'convert' them all.]

I've been coming to Turkey off and on since 1969 and have seen many shifts in so-called 'Islamic' dress over that time. First time, there were almost no women at all on the streets, serving in shops etc.
When I returned in 1999 I was struck by the difference - women everywhere, who seemed to be either 'western'-dressed or wearing long, hot gaberdine coats topped by scarfs.
These days I'm seeing more hybrid types; modest 'western' dress plus hijab. I think it's an improvement!

"As a muslim convert living in Britain [where I do NOT wear hijab] "

Just curious,why are you not making your religious statement in Britain?

GT, thanks for your response and for initiating this important discussion.

I take issue with the idea that the veil, hijab, or any sort of covering of women (and this is not solely confined to Islam) 'liberates' women. Surely the strategy should be to encourage men to not engage in behaviour to harass women, rather than mitigate it? Talking about the veil/hijab/niqab/jilbab as a 'liberator' is the same as saying that a prison 'liberates' people from having to work to provide for themselves.

I agree with GayTurk. If you travel in the Balkans, you see women in headscarfs - even younger women - as part of the landscape in the more rural or remote communities. I think this is part of the cultural backdrop and not seen as a religious statement.

riceuten - isn't it some of each?

If I walk the street at night drunk, waving cash around then I'm more likely to get robbed. Of course in an ideal world, we would change robbery behaviour so robbery is no more. On the other hand, in today's world its prudent to be discreet and sober in some places at night.

I've never been accused of assaulting a women, and I can't see inside the mind of men who molest women at night. But I could believe that a drunk woman in tight top, mini skirt, fishnet stockings and high heels is more likely to be harassed than a sober woman in a hijab. So if a woman veils up then she's less likely to attact unwanted attention. Not sure liberation is the right word for it, but I can see there are non-religious reasons why a woman might choose not to flaunt all she has.

Well, not really

People should have the right to dress as they please, without any religious pressure to do otherwise.

People do not have and should not have the right to rob or assault people, however 'provoked' they are. Thankfully we are way beyond the years when a woman who wore a short skirt was deemed to be 'asking for it'. I have to say in London, a woman in a short skirt is less likely to be harassed (any more than a woman dressed any other way) than in other places. It probably says more about society and religion.

Interesting to hear that self-hatred is common in Turkey as well. In many Western countries it is political correct to have bad conscience about our history with Holocaust, slavery, colonisation to a degree that you should almost be ashamed of your own culture. That's also a reason why Western Europe has opened its gates to mass-immigration - it is a bit like paying back and not risking to be called a racist (which is the worst thing that can happen - it associates you with Hitler etc.)

I think Andrew makes a good thing about the word "Islamophobia". I hate the word because it indicates that there is nothing to be afraid which is indeed not true when polls come out that 35-40% of the young Western Muslims prefer to live under sharia-law. That means that while Muslims should be free to follow their religion I also understand the intolerance towards people that look like islamists because an Islamic state would also be built on intolerance and there would be severe lack of freedom for secular Muslims and the infidels. Moreover, there is this continuing violence or threat of violence against people (especially Muslims) daring to speak against the will of people like the members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir.

GT - I don't wear hijab in Britian because to do so would make me more - not less - noticeable.
And I don't feel the need to flaunt my Islam, instead I simply live it.

Having said that, the one time I DID wear it in London was after 9/11, when all the muslim women suddenly stayed indoors, because I felt there was a need for their sake to be seen out on the streets.
When they started coming back of course I took it off.
It was a very interesting experience; some people were very polite to me, and sympathetic, as if to say "we're not blaming YOU for this' and only one person was rude.

"GT - I don't wear hijab in Britian because to do so would make me more - not less - noticeable."

This is a very interesting statement because as an "islamophobic Turk" in Turkey I notice or pay attention to women wearing hijab around me all the time(needless to say always in a negative manner).

A topic like this raises so many issues.

The first time we ever hit Turkey it was clear that the vast majority of women who wore a scarf did so as part of their traditional 'working dress' in the fields rather than any religious statement - the maid in our small hotel who served breakfast wore a scarf that she would regularly take off or adjust in my presence, usually when she sat down with us to have a tea and a cigarette when breakfast was over, so it was pretty clear that she wasn't making a religious statement.

The vast majority of women who wear scarves in the area where I live are elderly, to put it mildly, and their daughters and granddaughters certainy never wear one.

What I find anachronistic about women wearing a hijab is that so many of them also wear tight-fitting tops and jeans, which rather seems to defeat the purpose. It's also noticeable that there's a sort of 'summer hijab chic' look - brightly coloured scarf and cotton/linen top and trousers - better I suppose than those who insist on wearing the Full Monty with dust coats that would look more suitable on Clint Eastwood, who often appear to be with men wearing nothing more than a singlet and shorts - big exposed belly and knees - not exactly the proper Islamic male dress code, as far as I am aware. The idea that men can wear what they like whilst women have to cover up in suffocating layers of clothing doesn't look very liberating in my book.

I'd also take issue with the statement that "However - in Islamic countries I always wear hijab, and this applies also to Turkey. Because I'm making a statement; I'm not a sex-seeking tourist." - in the first place the vast majority of postings on this forum and others concerning the experiences of women tourists in Turkey who are not wearing a hijab are positive rather than negative, so it would not appear to be that much of an issue; in the second place am I to take it that all the Turkish women I see every day in my village in the summer (some tourists, many who live and work here) wearing shorts and often with bare shoulders are "up for it"? I don't think so.

On one level my feeling is that I couldn't care less about the headscarf issue, but on another it's really an indication of where the AKP is going to take Turkey. The current situation with Gul standing for the Presidency looks very much like the tail wagging the dog, the AKP rank and file pushing its leadership into a position between a rock and a hard place. Any move towards an Islamic Republic would spell financial ruin for vast tracts of Turkey, and I really can't see the people around here standing for it.

"men wearing nothing more than a singlet and shorts - big exposed belly and knees - not exactly the proper Islamic male dress code, as far as I am aware. The idea that men can wear what they like whilst women have to cover up in suffocating layers of clothing doesn't look very liberating in my book."

Yes - I have issues with that, too ;-))

#15, I don't see the issue here if everyone chooses their clothing of their own free will.

GoldOldie says she robes up because she chooses to, not because someone's forced her. So if some bloke chooses to wear singlet and swimming trunks on the beach, isn't that just as much his right to choose his clothing?

From a practical point of view, a women may dress modestly to discourage the amorous advances of strange men. I'm not sure so many men would take trouble to discourage amorous advances from passing women.

Fundamentally, the issue is - do women choose this style of clothing through their own free will, or through local society's expectations, and/or family (presumably male) pressure? This is where the AKP come in. If they shift - through domination of the political process and levers of power - public expectations such that women who do not conform to their views, are forced through expectations and risk of social exclusion to wear conservative style clothing. I think is the strategy of a significant minority within the AKP, who view Ataturk's legacy as a apostate abomination, and wish to move Turkey closer to a theocracy or at least a nation with a significant theocratic input to policymaking.

Witness the AKP's efforts to criminalise adultery in the last parliament if you require proof that the party are just a continuation of the Welfare/Refah Party and their hardline followers; Erdoðan's comments criticising New Year celebrations as unIslamic, as was shaking hands with women (!). When he lost a court case trying to stop the ban on women wearing headscarves, he then attempted to stuff the judiciary with Koranic school graduates, and was quoted as saying that the courts had no right to rule on issues such as the headscarves, only the ulema (Muslim clerics); the AKP have also restricted alcohol sales in Istanbul restaurants. I could go on, but you get a flavour of what is happening.

Part of the problem is the Turkish election system that have allowed a party with less than 40% of the vote to have over 60% of the seats (in the last parliament). And of course, the 10% clause specifically designed to exclude the Kurdish minority representatives via HADEP/DEHAP (much good that this has done them now they stood as independents). This has taken away the secular conscensus that existed before the AKP came to power, spurred on by corruption in ANAP/CHP and other parties, no doubt.

As regards Andrew's point about "a women may dress modestly to discourage the amorous advances of [...] men" - surely the issue is the men, and not the dress. Men are the ones who need educating, and women should not have to cover up to do that !

"the issue is - do women choose this style of clothing through their own free will, or through local society's expectations, and/or family (presumably male) pressure? "

Riceuten - don't YOU dress according to "others' expectations"? Those of fashion, for example.
And -

"I have to say in London, a woman in a short skirt is less likely to be harassed (any more than a woman dressed any other way) than in other places."

Do you know, I've been harrassed more in London than in any ME country? And I don't even wear short skirts. AND I'm in my 60s. [Not to say I'm a ravishing beauty - my next door neighbour got propositioned ny a customer just last week; she's short, fat and 75 , he was 90!]

About the islamic clothing pressure on women:

The wife of our current PM Erdogan gave an interview about 4 years ago to the Turkish newspapers which I find very sad but in a way summarizes the situation about the Islamic family pressure on dress.

When she was about ready to go to highschool which I am assuming to be when she was about 15,the men at her house ,the father,older brothers and uncles told her that she needed to cover her hair from now on .She refused to cover her hair and she was punished and banned from attending school.She was to be hold at her home all day long and she was not allowed to leave the house.She said that she had cried for days and resisted not wearing hijab but finally gave in because there was no one to support her .Ofcourse due to restrictions she did not cover her hair while at school but outside the school life she was all in Hijab dressing style untill today.Women like her eventually are forced to marry men like the ones in the family and this goes on and on from generation to generation.

I hardly ever think that a reasonable woman would choice to wear islamic clothing on her free will and live under this dress style forever.There are so many variables at stake here.None of these women have the luxury to dress up or dress down as GoldenOldie does when she travels.Once you are in you are in forever.Your entire social cirle and family expects you to live and behave under this conduct.After awhile the dress code becomes your personality and shapes the way you evaluate the rest of the world.You socialize with the people who dress like you do and you start dropping out of the secular world.None of this is the result of the free will rather the " choices" you make pushes you into another alternative lifestyle.Extremely difficult if not impossible to alter the situation so the big question is should we feel sorry for these women or do they deserve what they get?

>don't YOU dress according to "others' expectations"?

Not really. I have no expectations of how other people dress either, to be truthful.

GT - things are changing all over the world. Dress is an indicator of that change. You possibly feel more 'opressed' because you've lived for a proportion of your life in the USA, but many people in Turkey would not feel so oppressed.

Those that do, if they have any independence of spirit, will change their lifestyles regardless of social approval or not. I had to do this in my own life in England - marching for women's rights, etc.etc.
And yes, I stuck out like a sore thumb but regarded this as necessary given my personal choices.

I'm sure women in Turkey are no different.

Also, remember that the PMs wife was talking about her childhood; things have moved on since then.
I've met many Turkish women, both in hijab and without, who feel quite easy with their choices.

"You possibly feel more 'opressed' because you've lived for a proportion of your life in the USA"

Sorry,I do not get it ,what do you mean by that ?

"Those that do, if they have any independence of spirit, will change their lifestyles regardless of social approval or not, I had to do this in my own life in England "

Good for you but not everyone is you and Turkey is not England.You can also wear a T-Shirt in England saying "Proud to be gay" and walk on the streets but not in Turkey, even if homosexuality is not a crime in Turkey.:)
Also your environment is very important.
Many of these women do not come from environments where their call for independent spirit will be respected.
Remember honor killings?
Changing your lifestyle regardless of social approval is unthinkable if you do not have your economic independence.You need education to gain that economic independence which will be very unlikely if you are kept at home under the watchful eyes of your family members.
Not everyone has the revolutionary spirit neither the strenght as you do. :)

"So if some bloke chooses to wear singlet and swimming trunks on the beach, isn't that just as much his right to choose his clothing?"

You seem to miss the point that this is breaking Islamic dress code for men (and I don't give a ** if they do or not), but they would not tolerate their wives doing the same thing.

It's also easy for GO to do and dress as she likes - after all you can basically get away half the time in the UK without wearing anything (viz the Naked Hiker, or whatever he's called) - but even in the UK Muslim girls (inter alia) have been the victims of honour killings because they showed an independence of spirit.

Let's not keep this only to Islam; there are equally oppressive "clothing regulations" in fundamentalists of all religions, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs etc. The fact is that when a party with links to any of these comes to power, like the BJP in India, or the AK Partisi in Turkey, I get nervous, because they don't usually tolerate people of other opinions, never mind other religions (or none).

GT, Riceutin, Dudisimo your comments impress me. I agree with so much that has been said. We have a serious problem with rape and abuse in my country. It infuriates me when leaders talk about parents empowering and teaching girls in this regard but fail to mention that its the boys, men and societal norms that need to change. Patriarchal societies are a big problem. I've always felt if women are expected to cover up men have to as well. If women want to cover up it must be entirely their choice. There sits Mr. at the beach, naked except for his LARGE shorts ogling women while his wife suffers in the heat, sweat running down her face. Ugh!. Where's my vaporizing gun? Let's not even get started on honour killings and female circumcision.
I read an article in Turkish News about the massive amounts of 'secret' money coming into Turkey from countries like Saudi Arabia. The money is supposedly being used to fund the AKP, various projects and businesses. I fear for Turkey. Dudisimo I hope you are right that the people won't tolerate an Islamic State. The writer of the article likened it to cancer. By the time you see blood it's too late.

"Let's not even get started on honour killings and female circumcision."

I don't believe female circumcision has ever been a part of Turkish culture - it's African.

Honour killings are not - or should not ever be - approved of in Islam. However, they have formed part of tribal or clan cultures since time immemorial, and were certainly part of Sicily's culture up until the 1950s.
Even today the term 'shotgun wedding' is a literal reality in parts of the United States.
So, while abhoring the practice, don't let's get too smug about this. It was a part of 'western' culture in my lifetime and certainly in that of your parents'.

But I do so agreee with your comment about men's dress. After all, 'what's sauce for the goose ...'

" read an article in Turkish News about the massive amounts of 'secret' money coming into Turkey from countries like Saudi Arabia. The money is supposedly being used to fund the AKP, various projects and businesses"

This is not news really,this has been going on for many many years.Turkey is actually the" blacksheep "of the islamic world and needs to be re-shaped according to many Islamic countries.There is much power struggle going on here because if the Turkish model succeeds it could be bad news to many of the politicians/heads of states in the islamic countries.

GO I'm fully aware female circumcision is not Turkish. I mentioned this as one of the injustices to women. Smugness certainly doesn't come into it. Believe me the culture of treating woman badly is alive and well in my country.
GT you are right. I'm sure this is an old problem. I hope they never succeed in their aims of turning Turkey into an Islamic State. By the way I visited Izmir in May. I liked it but unfortunately it rained mud. I will have to return to enjoy it in sunshine. Love the ferries.

Vow. What a clever way to insert a threat to be used against Islam in a discussion group dealing with travel only. There are fascist groups in every country and every religion. Europe and America are rapidly becoming far radical religious societies. and so are other countries. If you want to see Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu fanatics, just google them. You wont be surprised.

Yasmin

Obviously you have not read the whole threat and digest it carefully.I suggest you do that first.

If I just wanted sun and a beach I could drive 300 km from where I normally live, which would be a lot simpler than travelling to Turkey from a country that doesn't have the same availability of cheap flights that countries like the UK and Germany do. I'm not even that much into archeological ruins. I come to Turkey as frequently as I can because I have made many friends here and love the place.

The issue raised by GT here is both extremely important - no more so than at the moment - and in many ways extremely difficult to get your head around if you're neither Turkish nor a Muslim.

It's also extremely relevant to travelling and tourism. As I've said 'upthread', the small (1,600 inhabitants) village where I live here depends entirely on tourism. I can't think of anyone here who doesn't make a living from it in one form or another, not to mention the migrant workers from all over the country who come to work in restaurants in the summer or on construction sites in the winter.

If Turkey were to become an Islamic republic along the lines of Iran, then obviously tourism would be decimated, and the Turkish economy along with it. It's clear to me after talking with many Turkish friends that whilst the EU and the USA appear to be quite happy with Gül, they have serious doubts about the AKP's agenda.

As a European I also find it amazing that anyone can suggest that "Europe....(is) becoming far radical religious societies", you appear to have failed to notice the complete decline of the Church of England in the last 90 years and the collapse of influence of the Roman Catholic church in Spain and Ireland. Of course there are small groups of religiously inclined idiots who spout utter drivel about other faiths, but do you really think that anyone takes any notice of them?

I'm sure that all of us who have posted here could provide streams of comment/criticism on other religious groups - we have to a certain extent - but there's not much point in talking about the issues you have with Christianity when you're talking Turkey!

Coming into the topic late...
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<hr>Are we “latent Muslims” who could not resolve our intellectual and emotional struggle with Islam? Do these people represent our repressed side? <hr></blockquote>
My first reaction does indeed seem to be intellectual at surface, but on a deeper scale here is the truth:
I was born in a country predominantly Muslim, with an ID card that used to say 'Islam' in it's little 'Religion' box.
To me my Turkish ancestors are the 'Selçuk' where 'Han' and 'Hatun' are equal, and the Islam we see flourishing in Turkey was made up by Arabs to suit their comfort, as women were treasured in Anatolia at the time and this cannot really be their making.

I believe in an Islam described by 'Ya?ar Nuri Öztürk' for those of you who know him, but don't consider myself a Muslim. That is not to say I am an atheist, I do believe in a power higher than me... but just as it is not illegal to wear a gay pride T-shirt in Turkey - but you still wouldn't really do it, I would't openly pronounce that I believe in Shamanism as a better way of believing, as it would be ridiculed along with Budism or Shintoism in Turkey as Islam is thought to be the last and best of aaaalll religions.

I find it extremely offensive that the 'secular' state decides %99 of Turkey is muslim and uses MY tax Lira to pay for more mosques and imams and not for more 'Cemevi' or 'Synagogues' or Shaman temple, or a Budist temple. The irony is that I do believe in Shamanism but live in such a culture that it is more normal to be an atheist than a shaman.

So; summing up:
1) I am snobbishly offended by those who wear a headscarf. This is the surface and elitist side of me. I do think of them as inferior.
2) I am offended because I think 'how stupid must the society really be to believe that a woman's body needs to be covered so as the idiot man can have a grip on his dick and not rape women left and right!'.
3) I am offended because the women who wear those headscarves don't realize there was a time on these soils where they were extremely treasured by the men, when they were equal as one.
4) I am offended because I don't want the whatever little money I make to go to feeding more imams for such people.
5) And finally, I am mad that I can't simply say I believe in Shamanism without thinking I will be laughed at.

Are these good enough reasons?

Great reasons TheSea. There was an article in Turkish Daily News, 24 August , under Domestic. ' Veiled woman enraged due to stalemate in marriage options' GayTurk asked earlier in this thread 'should we feel sorry for these women or do they deserve what they get'
Sorry I dont know how to get the article here. Perhaps someone could do it for us?

From this evening on we have a new president.
The first time in the history of Turkey(1923 that is ) there will be a first lady in the presidential palace who wears islamic clothing.This is actually a very difficul thing for me to digest and I am very depressed .
I would like to look at it positively:
The ruling partry of the government AKP and the new president of Turkey Gül prefer to be called "reformed moslems" ,they are moslems OK but they say that they very strongly believe in the western democracy and secularism to the last drop.
They refuse to be called islamists.
This is how they identify themselves.
We will have to wait and see if they are true to their words or if they are just plain acting with an agenda.
I prefer to give them some credit and I would like to wait and see.