Sicko

" love these so called libertarian, anti-government types claiming private enterprise is more effective than "big government." What a joke!"

"Start with gas prices where big oil gets billions in tax breaks while turning record profits. Or the agricultural sector where the family farmer has been driven off the land by corporate agri-business, with their fuel, seed, low cost loans, and chemcicals all subsidized by the federal government."

Care to take a mullligan or are you doing to stick with that contradiction?

The record (including your tax return) speaks for itself.

I have not idea what that means.
Do you not see your contradiction there? Saying anti-big Gov't people are a joke and then proving your point by showing where federal government subsidies fcked things up?

The point is that the anti-government types bemoan government spending for such things as health care (subject of this thread), education, and social issues while gladly accepting massive corporate subsidies funded by taxpayer dollars given to for-profit internaional conglomerates. Better we call ourselves U.S.A. Inc.

Cascadebob- I pay enough taxes for welfare programs that you seem to really enjoy and socialized medicine is just another welfare program that will produce mediocre medicine in the long run for the multitudes that seek it. You will see a tiered system where those that have will be paying for getting better medical treatment from the better doctors and the hacks will be left to treat those that are in the government system.
Before you cast stories regarding my political leanings you may want to get to know me better. (you sreaming liberal!!!! I joke of course)

Ah bfsaltwater, easy m'friend. My comments are directed generally, not personally. And yes, my redneck friends call me a screaming liberal, but my leftist friends call me a gun-totin', cigar smokin' redneck at the same time . . . so much for labels.

And I don't categorically trust ANY government, American or otherwise. I do think some things are inherently people's rights and not to be privatized for profit (including health care, environmental protection, and, yes reasonalbe welfare for those that need it). This is the right and just use of government, and the wrong and disastrous use of private industry.

I haven't seen much evidence of the tiered health care system you decry. Actually, from the foreign nationals I know (and I'm married to one) I've seen just the opposite. Also, AARP, Newseek, and a number of national periodicals and organizations have printed many articles recently about Americans increasingly traveling overseas for medical procedures (major and minor) including those folks with comprehensive U.S. health care plans that don't pay for overseas care. They report that they go for two reasons, 1) cost (even the comprehensive plans have deductables, limits, and co-pays) and, 2) quality of health care (equipment, well prepared doctors, facilities, and health care staff). Even HMO's are starting to offer a split package that includes payment (at a lower rate) for overseas health care. If our medical system is so good, why are the insurance companies offering such a deal?

As for spending my tax dollars, let me pay for adequate, government backed, base-line health care for all citizens over funding the killing of innocent people and American GIs around the world anyday (but as you noted, I'm probably a screaming liberal on that point).

I can tell we'd have a spirited conversation over a couple of beers sometime (and I love robust discussion - keeps the mind allive).

Cbob- I wouldn't get too excited about backing the insurance industry if you are against the corporate machine that is the US. They will take the cheapest way out to make their profit. One of the biggest reasons our healthcare problems exist is based on the insurance industry.
I work as one of those "money grubbing doctors" that has to deal with the insurance industry daily. Unfortunately those folks think they know more medicine than I do and they never have physically seen the patient and they routinely dictate what is the 'appropriate' treatment without having ever laid a hand on the patient.
Health tourism has become huge and while some of it is quality care some of it is not. I have seen the problems with botched procedures that have occurred overseas from inadequately trained doctors for the sake of saving a few bux. That is not to say that we do not have issues with quality of care here. We DO!!!!!!!!
You would have to admit that we in the states have the highest quality doctors and faciltiies in the world across the board. We also have our share of hacks as every country does. Old joke: do you know what they call the guy who finishes last in his class in Med. school?????? ------- "Doctor".
Government has screwed up so much that it has gotten involved in that I fear for what it could do to medicine. Medicaid is already a shining example of a poorly managed system that is gov't run.
Doctors are leaving school hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just to be a doctor. We have to be able to attract the best and brightest by making it possible for them to make a decent living. I have friends that are doctors in Dom. Rep. adn Costa Rica. These guys have to supplement their income by wandering into tourist bars and take blood pressures for a $2 tip in order to survive financially and support their families. They are gov't employees in socialist medicine system.
I agree that we'd probably have a great conversation over a few beers and cigars. I am having one myself this evening after seeing 48 patients today just to pay the mortgage in the good old USA. Peace.