Kevin - forming an opinion of a country based on personal experience does not make that person a bigot.
It's still surprising how some people can deny the obvious nationalism and xenophobia so apparent in Thailand these days. There are many examples: the recent Gallup survey which singled out Thailand as "the most xenophobic country in the World" with some 82% of Thai's voicing their opinion that Immigrants and foreigners were unwelcome was just the tip of the iceberg. Other examples include changes to the business laws citing that companies operating within Thailand could not be majority foreign owned, last year's changes to the visa laws to prevent foreigners staying in Thailand long term, portrayal of foreigners in the media, the legislated apartheid policy against immigrant workers from so called 'poorer countries' such as Myanmar and Laos, the inequality of the justice system evident when foreigners are involved, etc, etc, etc.
I could continue to rattle off examples all day, but you get the picture.
Like the Emperor Tud, I too found Phuketti's post the most refreshing I've read in a long time. Maybe it IS time for her to leave, at least for a long holiday, but she's absolutely spot on with her account of Thai attitudes/mentality/thought processes/institutional stupidity etc etc.
Most foreigners who live here longterm and claim they haven't experienced the sort of scenarios she described so accurately either have their heads up their own anuses or have extremely low expectations. Or both.
#10's post does not suffer from inaccuracy. It is simply one side of the coin. I agree with just about everything she says. The only difference is I, and others, have obviously learned to make adjustments for these realities and make a life for ourselves here despite these shortcomings.
#20- The history of racism is irrelevent. The only thing that matters are the attitudes displayed by Thais (or Germans, or Americans, or Arabs, or whoever) in 2007. And at that, Thailand (and Asia in general) is decades behind the west in matters of racism, particularly when it involves not westerners, but their neighbors.
Out of curiosity, is it just me or do others find the use of the word "farang" as a pronoun to be racist and not all that indifferent to how a certain "n" word was used in the US, say, forty or fifty years ago?
Chan, you must not be listening very well. I've heard it used as a pronoun countless times in the past decade and often by people who know my name but for whatever reason have chosen to replace Gordon with farang. Are you telling me you've never been with a group of Thais who will all refer to each other by each other's name, whether speaking directly to or about each other, but will refer to you as "farang" particularly when not speaking directly to you? And they know your name?<blockquote>Quote
<hr>and indeed it's not my preference of being addressed, but then a lot of people don't really know any better.<hr></blockquote> Thank you for making my point. It's not my preference for address either and you're right they don't know any better. Whic h is called ignorance, which is a nice excuse for racism.<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Now, there's loads of cases of course of "Hey, there's a Farang!"<hr></blockquote> Different usage. "There is a farang" or "He is a farang" is not the same as "hey, farang."<blockquote>Quote
<hr>and the answer is something like 'the Farang's table'. <hr></blockquote>Say "the (insert preferred word for non-white)'s table in a US restaurant in a voice loud enough for everyone to hear and see what happens. Of course, this could be a case of PCness run amuk but I'm playing devils' advocate just a wee bit here.... :)<blockquote>Quote
<hr>After all, it's the word for 'Westerner', a person of Caucasian origin.<hr></blockquote> Yes and n**r is a word for someone of African decent and there was a time decades ago that nobody thought there was anything wrong with the use of the word.<blockquote>Quote
<hr>You'd have to be pretty out there OR completely clueless to have a problem with such uses, <hr></blockquote> Depending on the usage of the word, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. My complaint lies in the usage of it a pronoun, which I have heard many times, and I find it particularly bothersome when it's used by people who know my name. And I do see it as racist even if it isn't meant to be so, but then again in 1930, the US didn't have too many racists either. Just plain God-fearing folks who thought certain people were inferior, less equal, and gosh darn it better know their place. And that same thought process is certainly alive and well in Thailand, though at its worst it's reserved for Burmese and Cambodians.<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Or remote Thailand for that matter. Show your face. People will be amazed by your presence, wanting to take a second look, it's an exciting experience. And people will yell out 'Falang!, Falang! in excitement. <hr></blockquote> This was not my point. And while I find this behavior a bit immature and moronic I don't find it insulting.
> Chan, you must not be listening very well.
Hey I take issue with that, I rarely listen at all! :)
> I've heard it used as a pronoun countless times in the past decade and often by
> people who know my name but for whatever reason have chosen to replace Gordon
> with farang.
Oh.. I positively never had that experience. There were a couple of cases of total strangers trying to get my attention in somewhat urgent situations, but.. I honestly don't get addressed as Farang much at all here (Chiang Mai, sometimes Bangkok) and especially not by peope who know my name.
Perhaps your name is too difficult to pronounce? :)
> Are you telling me you've never been with a group of Thais who will all refer to each other
> by each other's name, whether speaking directly to or about each other, but will refer to
> you as "farang" particularly when not speaking directly to you? And they know your name?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you..
> Thank you for making my point.
Oh I indeed completely agree. Though if people knew my name but would still use 'farang' then I'd most certainly take it up with them. So far I never had an opportunity/need to do this though.
> Different usage. "There is a farang" or "He is a farang" is not the same as "hey, farang."
Good. I have the feeling that some people (#10 etc) also take great offense to the former, which I think is silly.
> Say "the (insert preferred word for non-white)'s table in a US restaurant in a voice loud enough
> for everyone to hear and see what happens. Of course, this could be a case of PCness run
> amuk but I'm playing devils' advocate just a wee bit here.... :)
I guess.. indeed I'm not a PC fetishist who would rather have waitresses map out table-coordinates to a table rather than just a quick and accurate communication that will get the desired effect, namely the right food landing on my table.
>> After all, it's the word for 'Westerner', a person of Caucasian origin.
> Yes and n**r is a word for someone of African decent and there was a time decades ago
> that nobody thought there was anything wrong with the use of the word.
True. In fact in Thailand I do use for example 'negro' when the topic is a person of African appearance. All it takes for a word to become un-PC is a good number of people in that group to start taking offence for any real or imagined reason. Let's just say that I won't be in that group taking offence to Farang.
Cheers,
Chanchao
"So tell me please, who is less predjuced?? Perhaps Holland? "
No, I'm from the Netherlands and I can safely say that this is no longer the case.
"You'd have to be pretty out there OR completely clueless to have a problem with such uses, and indeed I don't. Most Thais, especially those not in educated business circles in Bangkok and the like, (i.e. the vast majority) simply wouldn't know of other words to refer to Westerners even if their life depended on it. To take issue with that is just silly. "
I don't agree with the above. I myself don't like to be addressed as "the farang", And I cannot help myself but think it might have a racist undertone with SOME people.`
"Don't believe me? Go to Laos, WAY WAY upcountry Laos. Or remote Thailand for that matter. Show your face. People will be amazed by your presence, wanting to take a second look, it's an exciting experience. And people will yell out 'Falang!, Falang! in excitement."
Yes this is pretty much what happened the first time I visited my friend´s family in Laos, of course the second time it didn´t happen simply because they knew me and knew my name.
"Chan, you must not be listening very well. I've heard it used as a pronoun countless times in the past decade and often by people who know my name but for whatever reason have chosen to replace Gordon with farang."
Happily this doesn´t happen to me. All the thai (or lao people for that matter) I know don´t call me farang. They either call me using my name, or the nickname I obtained.
Oh and to add something, Thai people indeed are racist. Especially agaist cambodians, japanese and even chinese people !
Chan,
I've not heard you speaking Thai so please forgive me if I am overstating your Thai language skills when I say this but; I believe you understand the use of the word “Farang” and that its use varies.
I take it that you understand perfectly well that Thais often do use the term ‘Farang’ with extremely derogative connotations. Again, forgive me if I am assuming too much of your Thai language skills.
I know you feel the need to defend Thais against any suggestion that they are not all angels, but please do try to remain within the bounds of credibility.
You also make the mistake, in your eagerness to defend the 'faultless Thais' of arguing that it is the sense in which the Thais claim to use the term Farang that matters.
Putting aside your failure to mention the very common negative use of the term “Farang”, you miss the point that in terms of offense, it is the sense in which the person on the receiving end perceives the term that determines ‘offensiveness’.
And that I might say lies at the very heart of the problem Thais and perhaps you yourself are having with the concept of Racism in Thailand. It is this inability to accept or even consider the ‘Non Thai’ person or view point.
> I take it that you understand perfectly well that Thais often do use the term ‘Farang’
> with extremely derogative connotations. Again, forgive me if I am assuming too
> much of your Thai language skills.
Honestly I don't hear it used derogatory or even as a word that ads negativity, even when discussing particular alleged negative traits of some tourists. You can of course add colorful adjectives to it, but you can do that with any reference, including 'American' and indeed 'Farang'. I.e. 'crazy Farang', 'stupid American' and so on. That such usage is possible doesn't mean that the noun itself is negative when used by itself. You could say that in a phrase like 'arrogant frog' the 'frog' is derogatory because you wouldn't use 'frog' in a regular neutral discussion. However my point is that you WOULD used "American' and indeed 'Farang' in a normal neutral conversation without implying negativity. So to get upset at each and every use of Farang is I think incorrect. THAT is my point.
> I know you feel the need to defend Thais against any suggestion that they are not all
> angels, but please do try to remain within the bounds of credibility.
LOL. I love the way you mix in those interjections in discussions. :)
> You also make the mistake, in your eagerness to defend the 'faultless Thais' of arguing
> that it is the sense in which the Thais claim to use the term Farang that matters.
Ah right I just did again above I guess. :) I use it myself when speaking Thai and needing a word for Westerner. Using anything else is a bit skewed. ('khon thaang chaad tawan tok' or some such.. I'm not going there, it would be ridiculous. So I normally use 'khon/chao farang' or 'khon/chao [nationality]' if the nationality is known and more relevant than generic 'Western'.
> And that I might say lies at the very heart of the problem Thais and perhaps you
> yourself are having with the concept of Racism in Thailand. It is this inability to
> accept or even consider the ‘Non Thai’ person or view point.
You can argue all you want but I think your issue is with Thai (colloquial) language. Go grab a dictionary off the shelf and note that it lists Farang as Westerner or Caucasian:
<blockquote>Quote
<hr> ฝรั่ง [fa-rang]
n. white race, Europeans and Americans, guava <blockquote>Quote
<hr>
(Source: http://cyberdict.com/t_version/m_dictonline.php)<BR><BR>Also what do do with all the perfectly normal words for orginally Western things that use Farang as the adjective similar to the word 'Oriental' in English, (incidentally also a recent victim to the PC brigade). I.e. like you have an Oriental rug you have in Thai lots of words that include Farang to indicate the type/origin, including chewing gum (mak farang), potato (man farang), etc.
What you are doing is TRY to convince Westerners that they should feel offended, so that you can then argue that it's not Thais anymore who get to decide that they want to call chewing gum "chewing gum", but that they should change because Westerners could feel offended.
And you'll probably succeed in another 10-20 years or so when Thailand catches up with totalitarian, institutionalized and legally enforced political correctness. Not sure that's the Thailand I'd enjoy living in as much as the one I enjoy today, Farangness and all.
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