Burma's Suu Kyi 'to be charged'

BBC News: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8049187.stm]

She gets charged because some numb-skull swam across a lake to enter her house????

Edited by: hanno

Well we all know that the American's sneaking in is just the pretext the junta needed or wanted to keep her incarcerated in one form or another. Very sad indeed.

Yes, they were looking for any reason to continue her detention -- AND, this guy is a real winner for handing the junta what they wanted on a silver platter. I hope he enjoys his prison cell for a good long time.

hmm,I can't blame the guy. It's the junta that needed an excuse and they would have concocted another way to keep her 'imprisoned' one way or another.

Gotta hunt for a BeerLao now!

No one seriously thought they were going to free her just a year before the big election regardless, did they?

maybe the guy works for the Junta
or better yet, for George Dush and his gang, oops, they out of office and unemployed now

or are they retired ?

Just read thats shes been taken from her house and driven to jail in Rangoon.

I still can't get over his CIA supplied, top secret speedo flippers
flipper flipper
for those here who have walked down University road, they will know where exactly the US Embassy is and note that it is just a short swim away from ASSK's house, anyone wearing those flippers could easily be distracted from the Embassy pool into the lake and ASSK's house without even knowing it.

The US Embassy (the new one) was just completed is the most advanced and secure US Embassy in the world to date, at a cost of $177 Million, in a country we dont even have a attache or diplomat staffed in it, just a bunch of State Dept spies...

november 2007 I was surprised as in 2006 no one was allowed past the house
so if yeltaw wanted he could have stayed at the Embassy overnight before swimming off to ASSK's for afternoon tea and tiffin as for the the house
tea anmd tiffin anyone welcome

Can you all sign this petition please? Maybe forward it to friends too? It has to be better than no action.

It's just so sad. I had some Karen patients today. So sad.

A big THANK YOU!!, Helen for the petition. I know sometimes it's easy to succumb to a sense of helplessness and despair but if each of us take one small step to alert our representatives and leaders to her plight, perhaps the junta may have to reconsider their draconian actions.
I believe international journalists' outcry to protect Sabieri, the Iranian-Japanese-American journalist recently released in Iran helped get her sentence reduced and suspended.
Let's hope such an action for ASSK does likewise.

Our leaders and representatives all have the internet so they are all aware of her plight. Petitions are actually worse than no action because not only are they pointless and achieve nothing (except allowing a few armchair activists to convince themselves they're making a difference) but they waste time and resources as well.

"Petitions are actually worse than no action because not only are they pointless and achieve nothing (except allowing a few armchair activists to convince themselves they're making a difference) but they waste time and resources as well."

I don't believe that. How defeatist and cynical would the world be if no one cared and did not bother to voice their concerns?! It's when voices reach a critical mass that representatives realize they've got to do something.

So what does non-action or indifference accomplish?

Sure while the junta may seem impervious to pressure, international unconcern over ASSK's situation would guarantee that the generals would do whatever they want.

Kananga, I don't always agree with your sentiments but on this one you are spot-on. Some punters sign petitions so they can feel good whilst the powers that be continue to do business as usual with the Generals.

In case you hadn't noticed, the Generals are doing whatever they want. And incase you also hadn't noticed, the UN Security council along with the World leaders are doing nothing about it and have done nothing for the last 19 years. Do you really think 'HelenIAM's petition is going to make the slightest difference?.

Wasting time filling out a pointless petition is as much use as the World leards comments this time around. Let's hear a few of the quotes.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton demanded her immediate release, saying she was "deeply troubled"

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed "grave concern"

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown earlier said he was "deeply disturbed" by the charges

Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva told Reuters, adding that the group was "concerned" by the recent events.

Grace concern, deep concern, deeply troubled etc etc etc blah blah blah.

~~So what does non-action or indifference accomplish?~~

Exactly the same as pointless action.

of course all leaders, specially the US will have loads to say about this, so they APPEAR to be concerned,
but in fact, none of those great world leaders care,

was she not a US and UK asset, put in there to try and form a civil government, lost, got dropped

like a few more want to be leaders around the world

you want to help, gather 1000 foreign tourists, go to burma a protest in person, surround the gov. compound and the jail... might be better than a petition that will only be used to help start tonight's dinner's cook fire

Thanks for your armchair non-action. Very easy to sit back and complain how the world works. Makes it even easier for tyrants and dictators to impose their will. Great enablers. Isn't that how the fascist came to power.

Milton Mayer

Oops,wrong attribution.

First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

For a start, I'm not complaining how the world works. I'm explaining how online petitions don't work.

However I'm sure if Martin Niemöller had an online petition behind him Hitler wouldn't have invaded Poland.

I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying if you are going to do something then do something worthwhile. That online petition is pointless and will change absolutely nothing. Signing it and saying you are helping the world is exactly the armchair non action you have just mentioned.

And to answer your original question, No. Facists didnt come to power because people didnt sign petitions. The same way nothing on the world stage has been altered or stopped because of online petitions. They are a pointless self serving feel good exercise for people who want to appear they care but dont actually want to do anything that will make the slightest bit of difference.

'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying if you are going to do something then do something worthwhile. That online petition is pointless and will change absolutely nothing. Signing it and saying you are helping the world is exactly the armchair non action you have just mentioned.?'

So how do you know that signing an online petition is pointless? What evidence do you have that it's futile?

And so what do you that's worthwhile and empowering?

and to add salt to the wound Niemuller was a fervent Nazi, who like many others at time came unstuck.
yellow triangle
Tan Schwe and Maun A rule by fear and take comfort that they live in fear too.
I was en route to Sittwe and met an American "Oil man" working for a Korean oil company that now is drilling for oil in the bay of bengal much to the Chagrin of Bangladesh Govt. the French Total oil has also heavily invested in the countries oil and gas resources which goes straight into the generals retirement fund. They are not going to give up power because the World says they are despots.
Since when did their benefactors ie Russia and China worry about Myanmaras suffering populace, they have their own to worry about. Or did the Western govts self interests make it any easier?
"Cynicism is the idealists last refuge"

monty--where do you get your information from that Niemoller was a fervent Nazi?

~~~So how do you know that signing an online petition is pointless? What evidence do you have that it's futile?~~~

Because she is still in prison, World leaders and the UN have done absolutely nothing and the Generals still run the show. What more evidence do you need?

I find it hard to believe that the Jewish Virtual Libary would have this to say about Niemoller:

Martin Niemoeller was a Protestant pastor born January 14, 1892, in Lippstadt, Westphalia. He was a submarine commander in World War I. He was anti-communist and initially supported the Nazis until the church was made subordinate to state authority.

In 1934, he started the Pastors’ Emergency League to defend the church. Hitler became angered by Niemoeller’s rebellious sermons and popularity and had him arrested on July 1, 1937. He was tried the following year and sentenced to seven months in prison and fined.

After his release, Hitler ordered him arrested again. he spent the next seven years in concentration camps in “protective custody.“ He was liberated in 1945 and was elected President of the Protestant church in Hesse and Nassau in 1947. He held the title until 1964. He was also a President of the World Council of Churches in the 1960’s.

Niemoeller was a pacifist who spoke out against nuclear weapons. He is best known for his powerful statement about the failure of Germans to speak out against the Nazis.

He died in Wiesbaden on March 6, 1984.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/niemoeller.html

___________________________

Nice music by Christy Moore, though.

Kananga--simple logic. She hasn't been released; therefore online petitions are worthless, or even worse, worse than no action. Makes a lot of sense.

I'm glad you've seen the light. May I ask a personal question? Apart from signing online petitons what have you done in Myanmar's fight for democracy?

I've attended rallies in front of SF's Federal Building organized by local chapters of BADA. Have donated money. Have attended other functions organized by the local Burmese community. Have brought in articles regarding Burma's political situation into Myanmar and passed them on to one office of the NLD.
So are you going to change the subject and make it about me when we should be focusing on ASSK?

Don't worry it's not about you. Although I must commend you on your noble if not ineffective contributions.

If we should be focussing on ASSK and not changing the subject why did you write the last line in reply #22 by the way?

You mean:
And so what do you (do) that's worthwhile and empowering?

Because it seemed that you were saying it's OK to be apathetic and that action was futile which I don't believe.

So are you going to change the subject and make it about me when we should be focusing on ASSK?

and I'm saying that POINTLESS action is futile.

Kanaga sometimes those that interfere with the internal politics of other countries, do more harm than good.History is full of the subsequential suffering of a countries populace due to external interference
Travel with Passion not politics
We travel and we report and we also affect, as areas of tourism are not treated as badly as other places in Burma. The Generals are all aquisitioning land without compensation for personal tourist projects and Kalow is already close enough to the capital to become the despots Hill station retreat that was once the favourite of it's British Colonial rulers
Tariq Ali was hailed a hero in Pakistan by its despotic rulers and press, whilst he interfered in British politics,rights and injustices,in the 60's he did nothing in Pakistan his country of birth, because Ayub Khan would have had him interred along with Bhutto.
I personally would not sign this petition as I am non political, do you think ASSK's idea of "Democracy" would make a difference? read her books, where she advocates 'rule by Generals for the peoples benefit,' ex president Mandelas 1st wife said he should have kept out of politics and when his son died of aids he wrote an article published in Bagnkok times regretting he had not been there for his children, whilst he stood against apartheid.
We can make a difference by just visiting Burma, helping local economies and enjoying the friendship of its people, some of the warmest hearted and friendliest in SEA, they are not impressed by the Generals propaganda and see through it, but do you.
our hearts go out to all those suffering at the hands of those who's selfish interests, leave it's victims destitute and without their basic rights.empathy is 'your pain in my heart' whilst we feel that pain, there is hope, at least for us if not for them

Well, your claim that online petitions are pointless action and therefore futile because she hasn't been released may be logical but not necessarily true.
Good night Spock.

Well call me old fashioned but excuse me if I dont waste my time on things that are by your own admission not logical.

"My campaign" actually came from the Burma Campain UK. There is a similar set up in the US. Many of us have probably been on their protest marches.

They might not have achieved anything like as much as we would wish but they aren't totally ineffective. This is from their website ...

The Burma Campaign UK is one of the leading Burma campaign organisations in the world. Our lobbying has changed UK government and EU policy on Burma. Working with campaign groups around the world, we persuaded the United Nations Security Council to start to address the situation in Burma. Our campaigns have persuaded hundreds of companies to either withdraw from Burma or to adopt policies not to source certain goods from the country.

correct, we need to get on our governements to do something other than look nice giving these speaches

Of course they are going to say that sort of crap. They are hardly going to say "The Burma campaign UK has had absolutely no effect in changing the current regime or releasing ASSK from her captivity. We thank you for your continued donations as it means a small number of us at Burma Campaign UK dont have to do real jobs. We can carry on putting together online petitions and feeling superior about ourselves without actually having to do anything or achieve anything. There are thankfully enough people who believe in armchair activism"

If they are one of the campaign organisations that means there are others. If there are others how do they know its their lobbying thats changed government policies on Myanmar and not one of the other 'leading Burma campaign organisations'? It's all bullshit.

The Mark Thomas Comedy Project has done more for the Burma situation in one night than 'Burma Campaign UK' has done in a lifetime. Google it.

Nobel committee blasts Aung San Suu Kyi treatment

OSLO (AP) - The Nobel Peace Prize awards committee issued a rare public statement Friday to condemn the imprisonment of 1991 peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi and to demand her immediate release.
The 63-year-old opposition leader was jailed on Thursday on charges of violating her house arrest. She has spent 13 of the past 19 years in detention without trial for her nonviolent promotion of democracy.
The secretive Nobel committee traditionally does not comment on past laureates. However, its non-voting secretary Geir Lundestad said they are deeply concerned about Suu Kyi and had made earlier appeals on her behalf.
"We sent this because it is a matter of the life and health of a laureate," Lundestad told The Associated Press.
The five-member committee said in the statement that it "protests strongly against the way in which the government of Myanmar (Burma) has treated Aung San Suu Kyi. Her recent detention in prison is totally unacceptable. She has done nothing wrong."
Suu Kyi and her National League for Democracy won national elections in 1990, but the military junta refused to relinquish power. She was not able to attend her Nobel Peace Prize awards ceremony because she was under house arrest, so her son Alexander Aris accepted the prize for her in 1991.
"The unacceptable treatment of her has to come to an immediate end. Recent reports about Aung San Suu Kyi's health are of great concern. We demand that she be given the necessary medical assistance without delay," said the Nobel committee.
Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

I know your intent is good, Helen, but with 20-30 years of hindsight available to everyone, that list of BCUK's accomplishments reads rather like a laundry list of the isolationist policies that have helped steer the country's economy to where it is today and produced the woeful lack of opportunity that exists for its citizenry -- policies that time has shown the regime to have clear immunity from, thanks to the economies of their unfettered-by-moral-causes neighbors, who buy not jobs-creating produced goods but raw natural resources, by the boatload.

Edited by: zeke7

Sorry I didn't mean to cause touble. I be super careful of what I post here in future.

you have not caused any trouble HelenIAM, you spoke from your heart and you care, sadly many who say their interest is in changing the political structure of Burma have their own political aspirations,and don't give tuppence for the actual effect on the ordinary people of Myanmar.
keep posting

Well Helen, haven't seen your name for awhile (except when I wrote it a couple of days ago inviting you for banana pancakes). Thanks for posting the petition and for the other things you do - you too, Hanuman. Lot's of opinionizing here (to paraphrase Harry Stack Sullivan, the supply of which greatly exceeds the demand), glad there are some doers (the demand for which greatly exceeds the supply).

I think I said earlier, really a sad thing.

Nobody knows, maybe without what has been done thus far things would be much worse. Maybe Obama will initiate engagement and maybe that will help. We'll see. In the meantime, some people are actually working to liberate all sentient beings! Talk about appearing to fail!

Maybe Obama will initiate engagement and maybe that will help

Not the way he is rowing back on all his campaign trail promises. Seems he is not the second coming after all.....

The Burma Campaign UK is one of the leading Burma campaign organisations in the world. Our lobbying has changed UK government and EU policy on Burma.

It'd be really good if they could actually influence the Burmese government's policies; somehow I think that would be much more effective. Thus, it's just another impotent "feel-good" organisation achieving nothing really for the people of Burma.

achieving nothing really for the people of Burma
--Is that all they're doing? Or is it worse than that? What have been the real ramifications to the people of Myanmar from the BCUK "persuading hundreds of companies to either withdraw from Burma or to adopt policies not to source certain goods from the country"?

That's an "achievement" ?

Burma Campaign, have made it very clear that NO ONE! no one at alll, should go to visit or deal with Myanmar, I personally think that Burma campaigns, ideology is to make life so miserable for the Burmese people that they will rise up against their Generals, they can then fulfil their own political aspirations within that country, democracy being a loose interpretation of their aims.
their former ceo Tony Jackson made great issue that no one should go then boasts hypocritically of his personal interview with ASSK, he did not have to swim to get to the house either.
________propaganda____________________
"you can fool all of the people some of the time
and some of the people all of the time
but you can't fool all the people all of the time"

"Maybe Obama will initiate engagement and maybe that will help."

buncha--well, according to this Reuter's report US policy towards the junta remains the same, having renewed sanctions.
But I don't think 'constructive engagement' has worked either. ASEAN members Singapore, Malaysia, and even Indonesia have been 'engaging' the military the past several years to reform without any success. Seems, the junta is impervious to any pressure without coordinated pressure from China, Thailand, and India.

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE54E60D20090515

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama on Friday renewed U.S. sanctions against Myanmar's military government, saying its actions and policies continued to pose a serious threat to U.S. interests.

Obama informed Congress of his decision the same day the United States joined other Western critics in denouncing Myanmar's rulers for pressing what they called "trumped-up" new charges against detained opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in February the Obama administration was reviewing its policy toward Myanmar and looking at new ways to sway its entrenched military junta.

Washington has gradually tightened sanctions on the generals who have ruled the former Burma for more than four decades to try to force them into political rapprochement with Nobel laureate Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy.

The opposition won a 1990 election landslide only to be denied power, and Suu Kyi has been in prison or under house arrest for more than half of the last two decades.

The United States, Britain, the European Union, the United Nations and human rights groups condemned the trial that Suu Kyi faces from Monday on charges she broke the terms of her house arrest after an American intruder stayed in her home.

"The crisis between the United States and Burma ... has not been resolved," Obama said, citing sanctions first imposed by the United States in 1997 and ratcheted up several times in response to repression of democracy activists.

"These actions and policies are hostile to U.S. interests," Obama said. "For this reason, I have determined that it is necessary to ... maintain in force the sanctions against Burma to respond to this threat."

Maybe I was trying to take the focus off blaming this and that external factor (US policy, Burma Campaign) for what really is nothing more or less than a truly evil totalitarian regime.

I still maintain that it is unknowable what effects the efforts of the US, UK, New York Times, Burma Campaign, etc. have had. Without these and other efforts, my guess is that Burma would be a far greater nightmare.

I also think it would be of far greater value to the people of Burma and to this discussion if the posters who so passionately and in some cases unpleasantly criticize these efforts to influence the situation in Burma would offer their suggestions for what to do.

No one's saying that the various campaigns are the cause of the situation, but with 20-30 years of hindsight available now with NO CHANGE in the situation, one has consider the potentially nefarious secondary effects that such policies as pulling jobs out of the country have had. It was of course well-intended, but what have been their true effects? Ask the citizenry how they feel about that.

The whole point is there is no reasonable suggestion as to what to do, at least from a confrontational perspective: as we've so painfully witnessed time and again, the regime is immune, with China ready to use its UN veto power for them on any relevant occasion (unless Myanmar should god-forbid cut off trade with them). It's all "internal affairs".

The west's economic sanctions are now meaningless, with China, India, and Thailand continuing to fund the country by buying up all their abundant natural resources. The trucks continue to roll while we sign petitions here.

Is the unmitigated rape of those resources at least partially a secondary effect of the west's sanctions and their 'enemy status' in the regime's eyes? It's time to think hard about that.

The people can't rise up; they just get mowed down with bullets. The UN can't touch the internal affairs of the regime as long as China remains their big brother. And pressure from western politicians and democracy groups ONLY CAUSES THEM TO RETREAT AND ISOLATE THEMSELVES FURTHER. That's what history is showing us time and again. Other than a military invasion (and we all know how well those go over), what solution is there?

Other than engagement... that does seem an option that's not been fully explored yet. It may even end up benefiting the people of the country. Whether it's already too late to engage, well, .... Obama's just extended the U.S. sanctions.

Edited by: zeke7

It is one more example of the UN's inability to do anything, anywhere, in any timely manner, with any effectiveness. The UN was created after the tragedy of the Nazi's death camp, so much for it preventing genocide the world over, just the last decade its hands are bloody in a dozen conflicts.

If world leaders like the US, take military action, its aggression and unpopular in the rest of the world.

China and Thailand are passive, India a byproduct of western colonialism, and the Junta has only one fear, the tribal minorities. Should we should start arming them now, just like in Afghanistan, two things will happen, a bloody civil war, or insurgency of bad asses that will make the Junta look tame and like nice folks.

Worst case scenario, if things get worse in Burma, Thailand will need US support, if fighting spills over the border, along with refugees, and as a ally and previous American War partner, is natural for the US to counter any Chinese support (Arms) of the Junta.

We are all of course batting on the same team, but what we disagree with is the way in which we can bring about change to Myanmar. We all have the same goals, but how we achieve it is what divides us.

Bear in mind that we are not dealing with a democratically elected government and furthermore, a government which has proven that it does not care about the welfare of its own citizens. This must be understood by those who wish to help make a difference to the people of Myanmar. Thus, some of the techniques that's normally used in any civil democracy to bring about change, eg, petitions, trade sanctions, boycotts etc, that would normally cause community outrage in a civilised democracy will have absolutely no effect on the military junta in Myanmar. You only need to look as far back as the 2007 Monk uprising to realise this. When even the highly respected monks of Myanmar society were brutally dealt with when they tried to bring about change, what hope does a petition from the Burma Campaign have?

As for a solution to the problem, if we all had the answer to that, then none of us would be sitting here typing on Thorntree. I'd hate to suggest that military intervention is the only answer as it won't be pretty (especially for those who have friends and family in Myanmar), but think about how dictatorships in the recent past have been over thrown and it will give a hint as to what is needed to solve the problem. The Junta knows that this is a possibility .. that's why they moved the nation's capital to Naypyidaw. They know it's coming.

viagra--thank you for explaining kananga's and other's position more explicitly and clearly though again I don't necessarily agree that petitioning is futile. I actually agree with much of what you've posted, especially with regards to the analysis of the brutal Myanmar junta, that I also assume that most of us here on the TT support regime change, preferably non-violently if possible, and that military intervention may be necessary.
But what I don't understand is the hostility and even contempt directed at petition signers. It may be ineffective and may not produce results but a petition pressuring for the release of ASSK immediately is not necessarily futile nor are petitions for reform or even regime change. Absent any international outcry and pressure, the regime may deem that the world is unconcerned over ASSK's welfare and have carte blanche to behave however it wishes. But knowing that there is an international demand for her release, they know the world is watching and that there are consequences for their actions.
The logic that 'petitions are futile' is to me, dis-empowering. Just because it doesn't produce the result one wishes, doesn't necessarily mean it's unproductive. Given the logic that such action is futile because it doesn't produce results desired, then why protest? Why demonstrate? Why take action of any sort? It develops an apathetic and a defeatist attitude. This is the type of non-action that keeps dictators and tyrants in power. They want a docile citizenry. The Burmese cannot voice their dissent without dire consequences but we as outsiders can. And we can make it known to the junta that the world IS watching what is happening with Suu Kyi and are demanding change even though it's unlikely that they'll bow to pressure. It also serves the purpose of letting the Burmese opposition in Myanmar as well as the Burmese people know that they haven't been forgotten. That alone is empowering to its citizenry, to know that the world does care about what's transpiring over there. Even though they can't read what's happening because of censorship, they do watch CNN and BBC, they do listen to VOA or Thai radio.
Also, taking 'action', even if it's just signing a petition means something. Not all of us have the time to attend demonstrations or donate money but even small actions have meaning. It may not to you, but it may to others. As you posted, we don't have the answers on how to force the junta to change, but we should act no matter how small such action may seem and even if it doesn't produce the results we want quickly. The struggle against despots never is but doesn't mean we shouldn't try in whatever manner we can. And in this case, it is to demand for the immediate release of ASSK.

~~~But what I don't understand is the hostility and even contempt directed at petition signers.~~~

Neither do I, and as far as I can see there hasn't been hostility or contempt on this thread. Just the voice of a different opinion. Isn't that what you are 'petitioning' for in Myanmar after all? The right to have a voice and a different opinion?

~~~The logic that 'petitions are futile' is to me, dis-empowering. Just because it doesn't produce the result one wishes, doesn't necessarily mean it's unproductive. Given the logic that such action is futile because it doesn't produce results desired, then why protest? Why demonstrate?~~~

No one has said don't demonstrate (although in my opinion that is just as pointless in this case) we are talking about the pointlessness of online petitions and the Free Burma UK organisation when it comes to having any effect on Myanmar's Junta or ASSK.

Security tight at Suu Kyi trial

YANGON, Myanmar (AP) - Riot police behind barbed wire barricades ringed a notorious prison where pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi was to go on trial Monday for allegedly harboring an American man who swam to her lakeside home.
The tight security came as activist groups, which spearheaded a bloody uprising against Myanmar's military rulers in 2007, called for protest rallies in front of the Insein prison until Suu Kyi is freed.
On the eve of the trial, her defense lawyer said Suu Kyi was innocent of the charges, which could put her into prison for up to five years.
"We call all political forces for Free Aung San Suu Kyi to mobilize all over Burma, by holding praying sessions in homes, places of worship ... and holding silent, peaceful rallies in front of Insein prison," said a statement from three activist groups. Burma is the old name for Myanmar and preferred by the military regime's opponents.
These included an organization of Buddhist monks, who were at the forefront of the 2007 protests, which were brutally crushed by the regime.
Security forces blocked all roads leading to the prison as several hundred riot police, many armed with guns, batons and shields, guarded the perimeter of Insein, where the regime has for years incarcarated political prisoners.
"After listening to the sequence of events, it is very clear that there is no breach of conditions of her restrictions," lawyer Kyi Win said after visiting the Noble Peace Prize laureate in the prison over the weekend.
Suu Kyi, 63, was charged Thursday with violating the terms of her detention by sheltering John William Yettaw, reportedly a Vietnam War veteran, who will also be tried along with two female assistants who have been with Suu Kyi since 2003.
Suu Kyi had been scheduled to be freed May 27 after six consecutive years of house arrest.
The charges are widely seen as a pretext for the ruling junta to keep Suu Kyi detained past elections it has scheduled for next year as the culmination of a "roadmap to democracy" which has been criticized as a fig leaf for continued military control.
In Monday's court session, Kyi Win said Suu Kyi's defense team will ask for an open trial and may also request bail. The prosecution is expected to call 22 witnesses during the trial.
Kyi Win said Suu Kyi was ready to tell her side of the story. "She has always been ready to tell the truth," he said.
On Sunday, a family member said Suu Kyi's personal physician, Tin Myo Win, was released by authorities a day earlier after being taken from his home on May 7, a day after Yettaw was arrested near Suu Kyi's lakeside residence, where she has been detained for more than 13 of the last 19 years.
The family member spoke on condition of anonymity, citing possible reprisals by authorities.
It is not known why Tin Myo Win was arrested. A spokesman for Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy earlier said the doctor's detention may have been related to the American swimmer, who has been labeled a "fool" by the pro-democracy movement.
Her latest arrest has sparked a storm of international appeals to Myanmar's government to free her and to restore democracy in the country, which has been under military rule since 1962.
In unusually sharp criticism from a Southeast Asian nation, Philippine Foreign Affairs Secretary Alberto Romulo said Sunday that his government was "deeply troubled and outraged" over the "trumped-up charges" against Suu Kyi.
"We urge the government of Myanmar to resolve the matter speedily and to release Aung San Suu Kyi immediately and unconditionally," he said.
Normally, members of the 10-country Association of Southeast Asian Nations, which includes Myanmar, refrain from criticizing one another.
Exactly why Yettaw, of Falcon, Missouri, swam across the lake to see Suu Kyi remains unclear. After leaving, he was fished out of the lake by authorities about 1.2 miles (two kilometers) from her residence and taken into custody.
His wife, Betty Yettaw, described her husband as eccentric but peace-loving and "not political at all."
According to his ex-wife Yvonne Yettaw, he said he went to Asia to work on a psychology paper about forgiveness.
She said he suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and a head wound during his military service.
While Yettaw was in Thailand, "Myanmar caught his attention," she said. "There really is not politics behind this. He does not have a political agenda and meant her absolutely no harm."
His former wife said Yettaw belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, adding it was unlikely he was in Southeast Asia to proselytize for the church or convert the Nobel laureate.
But a police report on the case against Suu Kyi said that on an earlier visit to her house last November, he left a Book of Mormon, the religion's sacred text, in her compound "with intention for her to read (it)."
The report, made available by the Washington-based activist group U.S. Campaign for Burma, said on Yettaw's visit on May 3, Suu Kyi allowed him to stay at her residence until the night of May 5, speaking with him and providing him with food and drinks.

Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Kananga--so what action/s do you think are effective and worthwhile in order to get ASSK released or to get the junta to reform? You'd mention the Mark Thomas Project and via a cursory search did not find references to Burma? Could you provide a link? Is he a political satirist? I'm not familiar with english activist. Is he similar to John Stewart or Stephen Colbert in the US? What is it that he's done or said that has been effective?

search for mark thomas product .. rather than project

He's a comedian who did some political topics some years back. Put the British Home Secretary in an embarrasing position on live tv. Google 'Premier Oil Robin Cook.'

And any thoughts on what is effective action/s? I'll double check again both yours and mosegrisen's suggestions although I've gone into the Channel 4 website and did a search under keyword 'Burma' and came up with a lot of recent news but no reference yet to his confrontation with the PM? Oh well, will search under your suggestion of 'Premier Oil Robin Cook'.

While neighbouring countries such as Singapore provide a safe haven for the Junta with regard to first rate medical care for ailing generals and countries such as China provide industrial dollars nothing will change. Neither which have a particularly good record for democracy themselves.
North Korea is far worse in regard to personal freedom and that little porker is still running the show.
Confrontation was with Robin Cook the then Foreign secratery regarding British industry involvment in Myanmar.

OK, I did find this:
http://www.markthomasinfo.com/section_info/series4.asp

I think the realistically effective potential actions have already been discussed here, and none seem very feasible:
--military assault
--terminate the massive financial support provided by its neighbor countries through their wholesale purchase of Myanmar's unprocessed natural resources, support that is keeping their economy from collapsing altogether
--engagement

The latter seems to me the only one with a current glimmer of hope, but the regime is so backed-into-a-corner paranoid now, it doesn't seem likely. ASEAN's attempts have been feeble.

As noted on the JWY thread, it's being reported that 4 EU diplomats (ambassadors?) (Britain, Germany, France, Italy) together and earlier an Australian diplomat were turned away from attending assk's trial at Insein today.

I just wonder how hard each of you fight for things that are wrong in your own countries!

Quote Kananga #54: ~~~But what I don't understand is the hostility and even contempt directed at petition signers.~~~ (K quoting me)

Neither do I, and as far as I can see there hasn't been hostility or contempt on this thread. Just the voice of a different opinion. Isn't that what you are 'petitioning' for in Myanmar after all? The right to have a voice and a different opinion?
_____

You're right, I misspoke - things have been stated strongly, but "hostility (or) contempt" overstates the case. I'm not petitioning, though I respect those who do.

Still waiting on what will work or is doing nothing (except having opinions + criticizing those who are doing something) still your best answer.

And I'm still saying that nobody here has a clue if the pressure (soon possibly to increase from even the EU) has held the goverment at bay to some extent. I think it probably has, but who knows.

Held them at bay? As in, things could be worse if we didn't have them? How so? Some detail is called for.

Time has shown they're quite immune from the west's sanctions.

3-EU considers toughening Myanmar sanctions
However some ministers and EU officials said only Asian nations could exert a stronger influence on Myanmar.

'Our problem with sanctions on Burma (Myanmar) is that we have sanctions on virtually everything,' said Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt. ' Our relationship with Burma is nearly non-existent and that makes it somewhat complicated.'

bun_cha--that quote that kananga was responding to is actually my comments. He wasn't responding to your words even though we share the same sentiments.

zeke7--Yes, things in Myanmar could be worse if there had not been pressure from anti-government forces. Of course no one cannot prove what 'might have been'. That's always speculation.
Yet, again, I still don't understand criticizing others actions when we all agree that we want the government to reform and the immediate release of ASSK. It's what divides progressives all the time: the belief system that it has to be this strategy otherwise it's ineffective. So why criticize without making constructive recommendations for action?

Hanu, those 3 options outlined in #62, which have been offered here by several posters, are constructive, imo; they're just not very feasible. It's really hard for the all-powerful west to recognize its powerlessness in this case.

, the west is powerless indeed,
china rules, and china says it's ok in burma
therefore it is ok in burma

no one can / will go against China because China owns the world, if china pulls out their investment in any country, those country will be bankrupt,

so as i said b4, gather up one thousand or more tourists in burma and have them surround the palace, or the jail and protest till change is done, no one comes or goes...

they could not arrest a very large number of foreigners from all over, all at once

Calling for detail? This seems fairly clear to me: "And I'm still saying that nobody here has a clue if the pressure (soon possibly to increase from even the EU) has held the goverment at bay to some extent. I think it probably has, but who knows. That is to say, I think the sanctions, New York Times articles, and other efforts have probably helped, "but who knows."

And I still would like to hear the better ideas from those who decry the efforts of "armchair activists," "punters," the "self-serving," and others who work in whatever way they can to help the people of Burma. Do you guys also think it's a waste of time to pray for peace, address world hunger, fight crime, work for human rights? Because, clearly we don't have peace, hunger is a huge problem, crime is ever-present, and human rights - well, you know.

But you can ignore that last question and if you would, let us know what you think we should all be doing - or is the answer still, nuthin.

Have another cerveza, there JB.

Edited by: I just got a Beartooths topo in the mail and I think I'll work on my route for the trip into the high mountains this August

Actually, signing a petition, and or getting 1000 foreigners to head to Burma and protest, both would require putting your name and city ona list of some sort that you support and will participate in a action against the Junta, and since the internet is open to all, Myanmar would just deny all people on any list, a Visa to enter!

Think about it, even the Facebook page for Burma, if you are a friend of the Burma Democracy campaign, you are also a marked man (person) in the Junta eyes, and they can easily make a list of every person on the Facebook Burma page, therefor, denying entry to Myanmar.

So, getting 1000 people together to head to Burma for protest, while a great idea, would need to be done in secret, not to mention the huge influx of people asking for Visa's in a 30 day period, may set off alarms in halls of the Burmese intelligence. After all, how many non Asean Visa's are issued in a given month? 200?

Sure there's something we in the west can do, two things in fact: 1) start convincing China to stop shielding them, and convince all their neighbors to stop buying from them and thus propping up their shell economy. Good luck with all that -- "Don't meddle in internal affairs" is a favorite motto of China as well --hello, Tibet? 2) encourage people to visit the country, period (read: engagement): that's we we all be doing here, if you haven't noticed.

Get over the western hubris that "increased pressure from us" can control the affairs of others--in this case, time has shown otherwise.

Really, buncha, you're spending way more words here repeating "What else do you suggest then?", than there's been the few words spoken criticizing the futility of protests and petitions. Effective alternatives have been suggested; re-read them.

OK, so Helen will do petitions, Hanuman will participate in various work, I'll keep on with Karen people and others will encourage people to visit the country. OK, I guess I must have missed the previous posts discussing this "effective alternative" of encouraging people to visit.

Not the previous posts on this thread... on this forum. The forest, the trees, you know...

~~~OK, so Helen will do petitions, Hanuman will participate in various work, I'll keep on with Karen people and others will encourage people to visit the country. OK, I guess I must have missed the previous posts discussing this "effective alternative" of encouraging people to visit. ~~~

Reply #33

Well ALRIGHT, great plan - glad you guys have it figured out! Other people's efforts to inform and pressure the govt are armchair activism, punting (whatever that means - I'm sure it's complementary), self-serving, & so on, while this plan (traveling in Burma) is none of those things - Lord, Lord, it's an "effective alternative" - how about some detail on that one.

Or maybe you could just say this is what you think, rather than saying unequivocally it's effective and unequivocally that other efforts are ineffective. Come on. Surely we all want the same thing for Burma and surely we're all saddened by this latest development.

I'm not saying that traveling in Burma and informing others is a bad thing; but I'm not convinced it's very effective and I certainly don't think it's the answer. And so far, it's the only alternative that I recall being given in this thread. Maybe you'd share some more direction or ideas.

While the likes of China, Russia and Singapore provide varying degrees of financial support to Myanmar all the petitions in the world and UN huffing and puffing are going to do absolutely nothing.

Do you think using your time and energy on an issue you can't improve is better than using it on something you can improve?

"...persuading hundreds of companies to either withdraw from Burma or to adopt policies not to source certain goods from the country" -- BCUK

"I think the sanctions ... have probably helped" -- b_cha

Helped impoverish the citizenry by pulling jobs out of the country? I know you don't like to hear that, but you need to think about it.

Just look how China has changed in the last ten yrs, none of the young people in China will accpet going back to the land and forgoe their designer clothes, for Mao Tse tungs little red book, we visit and they see us and their depravation becomes more acute as they want what we have, why else are there so many economic migrants from Myanmar to Thailand and I'm not talking the Karenn refugees either.
Obviously if the Generals thought they could get away with it ASSK would be dead in a ditch years ago along with those families of protestors still floating down the Irrawaddy months after the protests. their propaganda broadsheets and TV slots showing them opening schools and receiving praise form local dignataries, doesn't wash with anyone, which is why mobile phones are so expensive, unless you live near the Chinese border where everyone has them and uses the Chinese sim cards.
If Tan Schwe were to die tomorrow General Maung A has a far worse reputation for blood curdling despotism.
History is littered with such despotic dictatorships From Hitler to Timur (Tamerlaine) and they all end up dead psalm 146:3
As I have said Those that rule by fear also live in fear, and trust me Tanschwe is paranoid about all those who come in contact with him. Remember Ceaucesceau he ranted right up to his execution what he would do to those who tried him
meanwhile I leave their downfall to a higher authority, despite my pain at the suffering they inflict. Meanwhile enjoy the warmth of its people and visitand see for yourselves.
travel with passion not politics

Amen monty, I was in the middle of composing this when your post came in; it was meant to tag along with my previous post.
======
Of course that's not to even begin to source the sole or even principle fault of the people's woeful state on the west's sanctions. But at this point in time, with the sanctions a decade and more old, one has to examine how contributory they've been. Talking about retrospect, not speculation.

It's as simple as 1 + 1 = 2:

1: The west imposes sanctions, terminating all / as much business dealings with the country as possible.

plus

1: The regime, who clearly cares nothing for the welfare of its citizenry, discovers it can get along fine without the west, THANK YOU VERY MUCH -- with China's "lay-off-of-others'-internal-affairs" political support and more importantly the financial support of China, Thailand, and most of their other neighbors by selling off at wholesale prices the country's abundant natural resources to them -- whose economies, by comparison (recession notwithstanding), are going gangbusters, and they're the ones processing those raw materials. The west is rendered eunuchs, and they don't like it. Their "I'm not impotent!" hubris makes them dig in their heels, just like the regime has done. They don't recognize the damage being done.

equals

2: Impoverished citizenry. Abominable state of health care. Abominable state of education. Abominable lack of opportunity. No end in sight. Yet such an astonishingly refreshing attitude is so often found among them.

You think if maybe western companies were still doing business there, just maybe they could be providing some support for health care, for education, for plain employment opportunity? At least for the lucky few who had jobs with them? For Moe and Ko citizen.

You think maybe if the west had more vested interests there, the regime wouldn't have been so paranoid as to block the west's Nargis relief ships that languished futiley offshore? If we had been engaging them before that, and not obstinately butting heads with them?

The regime says "Let them eat frogs." The west says, "We've got our principles (and pride) to uphold."

How much good have sanctions really done? And what of the damage done?

P.s. The more we go the more we interact with the people just by visiting,contributing slightly to the local economies, the more we dispel the Generals propaganda and our own Governments as well lol
This is why I personally think the Burma campaign does more harm than good, by trying to block independent travel to Myanmar as well as official tourism that just lines the Generals pockets with more $'s.

If the Burmese generals were smart they should have just done what they do in Singapore. Declared themselves a democracy and sued ASSK and the NLD with a silly trumped up defamation suit and write into the constitution that a bankrupt cannot run for office. Hey presto! Opposition removed and its all technically legal.Then open doors to the West for trade to keep the citizens happy. It's worked here since 1965.
The singapore government has no more desire to relinquish control over the country than Myanmar's. It's all in the delivery.

Kananga the generals don't think the way others do, Like ceauscescu it's all 'cobblers' to them

Than Shwe defies the world again

My wife and I went to Burma the first time around 1978 and have been back four times. There have been many thousands of other people traveling to Burma over the years. I’m wondering why some of you are so sure that traveling to Burma is an effective way to help the Burmese and that all other efforts are a waste of time, hubris, etc. on the part of “armchair activists” and “punters.”

Where are your outcomes? Why are you so sure your way is the only way? (And so far, it’s STILL the only alternative option given in this thread.) Why don’t you respect what other people are doing? Nobody has disrespected you or your position that going to Burma helps the Burmese (though Helen disagrees with it). I’ll answer the questions for (some of) you: you have a position and defending that position, including denigrating others (personally and in terms of their beliefs and actions) is your purpose here. I guess you want to “win” some stupid-ass internet argument. Probably you would do a little better and garner a little more respect for your position if you had a little more respect for others.

I'm sure deep down you mean well but I lost count of the contradictions in your last post. Take a chill pill and relax. All people have done here is voice their opinion (which they are entitled to) on the lack of effectiveness of online petitions.

If you want to have a 'stupid ass internet argument' as you call it, then take it elsewhere.

Quote: "All people have done here is voice their opinion (which they are entitled to) on the lack of effectiveness of online petitions."

No Kananga, you're wrong - they've disrespected others (discussed in previous posts, e.g., "armchair activists," etc. - and shown to a lesser extent in your condescending, "I'm sure deep down you mean well" statement) and you still have not offered any alternative other than go to Burma. Of course you have not and you will not because you have nothing to offer other than criticism and deflection.

Like I said, if you want to have a 'stupid ass internet argument' take it elsewhere.
I never even said go to Burma. May I suggest that if you feel the need to keep up this aggression you sort out who you are directing it at before launching on these silly offensives.

Peace

Nice one. Illustrates the deflection comment. Write anytime you have any constructive ideas on how one can contribute to or play some part in freedom for the Burmese.

What could one do? Ok, one could stop China and Russia providing hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign investment as this flow of revenue provides the Junta with enough money to stick two fingers up to the West.

Perhaps if we start an online petition and stand outside the embassies we could get Wen Jaibo and Putin to withdraw all investment in the country? Do you think that would work?

If not please hold off on the 'internet argument offensive' and shoot a few ideas of your own instead of launching personal attacks on people who actually have more than one toe in the real world.

From today's Times:

World Agenda: sad truth is nothing much has helped in Burma
[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/world_agenda/article6325298.ece]

...But the attention devoted to her struggle raises the question: what, if anything, can the rest of the world practically do to bring about political change in Burma?

...The sad truth is that nothing very much has helped in Burma, and there is nothing obvious left to try. The two extremes of policy are engagement - as pursued by Burma’s neighbours in the Association of South-East Nations (Asean) - on the one hand, and isolation, practiced by the US and EU, on the other.

...Several of Asean’s members have rotten human rights records of their own. Part of the reason they have embraced Burma as a member, one suspects, is because, compared to the Burmese junta, even the communist dictatorships of Vietnam and Laos look progressive by comparison.

Officially, they argue that the friendly encouragement of neighbours is more effective in bringing about change than the reproach of governments half a world away. But 12 years after joining Asean, Burma has made no genuine progress towards democratic reform.

But sanctions have done no palpable good either – and there is a strong argument that, whatever inconvenience they have caused for the junta and its cronies, they have done great harm to ordinary Burmese. An unofficial tourist boycott, encouraged by NGOs such as the UK Burma Campaign, and apparently approved of by Ms Suu Kyi, has put off tourists for decades, and has impoverished Burmese waitresses, cyclo drivers and guest house owners, as well as the junta's crony businessmen who run the five star hotels.

...The problem with sanctions is that, however effectively they are applied by Europe and the US, the countries with most influence on Burma have little interest in taking part. For China and India, Burma is a highly strategic sphere of influence in which they compete for long term advantage.

...One alternative is to drop sanctions altogether, and hope that in the commercial free-for-all that follows, the passion for growing rich persuades the generals or their cronies to liberalise politics in their own interests. The other is to adapt the sanctions policy, and opt for so-called “smart” sanctions - a term much discussed as the Obama administration undertakes a review of Burma policy.

Advocates such as the Burma Campaign UK argue that a wider range of measures would bring meaningful pain to the general. These include tighter sanctioning, but also visa bans for regime related figures (including, for example, the judges in the current case); better co-ordination between EU countries and like-minded governments; a ban on foreign investment in oil and natural gas (which are not fully sanctioned); and greater diplomatic pressure on China, such as at the EU-China summit in Prague....

So what started off as a discourse on petitioning for ASSK's immediate release has devolved into 'whether sanctions work' debate, once again. One is an arguement for individual political action and the other is a foreign policy dilemma.

zeke--it's a good article outlining the dilemma that individuals and foreign governemnts face in pressuring for change in Burma. I agree that sanctions have been ineffective but I also think that 'engagement' is likely to be ineffective as well, especially without the cooperation of it's regional enablers. One needs to look at the Tibet issue to realize that there is very little leverage on the West's part to improve human rights there. But despite the sense of futility, doesn't mean that change is impossible and that we as indvidual citizens should throw up our hands (or in the case of some , 'wash our hands') of the issue. Two cases in point are Indonesia and the Philippines where reform seemed impossible. Both Marcos and Suharto were dictators backed by the military but at some point, 'the tipping point', the citizenry rose up to overthrow these corrupt leaders. Let's hope it's the same with Burma.

Hannah Beech had a great article from back in March, Times Magazine in which she wrote:

. . .The Western dialogue over what to do about Burma's repressive military regime is often framed as a single dilemma: whether or not to impose international sanctions. The debate is polarizing. The pro-sanctions crowd claims the moral high ground, deploring the enrichment of a clutch of ethnocentric Burmese generals whose impulses are most brutal against the roughly 40% of the population that, like the villages of Arakan state, is composed of ethnic minorities. The engagement side preaches practicality, arguing that some investment will trickle down to the populace and that cultural exchange is better than imposed isolationism. When U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visited Asia on her inaugural foreign trip last month, she weighed in on the Burma question, acknowledging: "Clearly the path we have taken in imposing sanctions hasn't influenced the Burmese junta ... [which is] impervious to influence from anyone." (See pictures of Burma's discontent.)

The truth about Burma, renamed as Myanmar by its generals, is that the sanctions debate is immaterial. While American and European foreign policy thinkers ponder how to financially strangle an army government that has ruled since 1962, Burma's regional neighbors are embarking on a new Great Game, scrambling to outdo each other for access to this resource-rich land. "Sanctions don't work if most countries ignore them," says Naw La, an exiled environmentalist with the Kachin Development Networking Group in Thailand. "The military is selling our natural heritage without any concern for our people." . . .

[full article here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1886304,00.html ]

She also wrote an Opinion piece in yesterday's Time, online:
Why Foreigners Can Make Things Worse for Burma
By Hannah Beech Times May 19, 2009 http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1899595,00.html

______________________________________

But I still don't understand the need for some on this branch to criticize the actions of those who are petitioning for ASSKs immediate release. What good does that do? I would think the generals in Burma would take a look on this thread and take comfort [and be amused] that we seem to want to divide our desire to bring about change rather than to work together for that change.

There's no sanctions debate for French oil firm Total -- they're not to be part of any such deal.

(sorry, the link got fouled up in editing that previous post: "...They're not to be part of any such deal": [http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h-wg8QEvazQHkEychl-ZzSbFG8YQ] )

There's a good relevant quote from that recent TIME article:

"One of Suu Kyi's lawyers branded Yettaw a "wretched American." Inside the country, it can be easy to spot the foreign idealists masquerading as, say, tourists or teachers, who have made it their mission to change Burma. They whisper about regime change and seethe with political indignation. They talk about signature campaigns or the latest effort to get foreign parliamentarians to condemn the Burmese regime's odious behavior."

"The impulse to want to rid Burma of its cruel government is understandable. But, so far, the outcome of this imported idealism has been nothing but failure."

--Sure, the Indonesian and Philippine uprisings can be inspiring. But as a model for Myanmar, there's one major difference: (as far as I'm aware,) Suharto and Marcos weren't near so ready and willing to mow down their own uprising citizens with bullets. That's a proven effective deterrent.

And for the west to encourage their citizens to be on the receiving end of that? I can't say that's what I'm hoping for more of.

Once again it's a case of been there (1988, 2007), done that, didn't work... 'cause I got killed instead.

Edited by: zeke7

Here are a few ideas on what to do:
1. Respect what people of good heart are doing, regardless of whether you agree with their actions.
2. Pray, with heart and soul for freedom and relief of suffering among people in and from Burma.
3. Spend a few hours every week, faithfully, serving people from Burma in your community (believe me, they need help).
4. Be a part of a greater effort to keep Burma in the minds of your leaders by writing to your Congressional leaders, President, newspaper and so on. Let them know what you think are good options, e.g., pressuring China.
5. Inform others about Burma, including the beauty and the problems. If you’re a teacher, teach your students or you could do something on the internet – whatever your assets might be.
6. Get involved with the Open Society Institute (Soros Foundation).
7. Go to Burma and take medicine, money, whatever (gotta be more than just showing up) OR participate in Helen’s effort.
8. Don’t lose heart.

#94 Very admirable actions but I thought we were discussing ideas for her release and regime change?

With all due respect I can't see how praying to your own god or serving Burmese expats is going to do that.

I'm done talking with you, Kananga.

Haha, ok suit yourself.

Take care.

Here are a few ideas on what to do:

No problems at all with that list bun_cha. They're all very easy to comply with, but it won't bring about change to Myanmar. The only problem with doing "feel good" activities such as this, is that you may develop a false sense of accomplishment when in fact a lot more still needs to be done. If only Myanmar has the dreaded three letter word "oil"; only then would other countries be more willing to step in. That's the sad truth.

Just my 2 kyats worth.

Actually, Mr. V, it isn't that easy to do more than a few, at least on an ongoing basis. And of course they're not all for everyone - one person may get involved with Soros (an excellent thing to do), another may take medications to Burma, and another may, like montyman be a hope bringer. It's mostly all good. Even those things that aren't completely congruent with your or my beliefs and efforts.

You said either in this thread or another one that you have a lot emotion invested in or coming out of Burma (sorry if I didn't get that about right). Same here. And I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying re feel-good activities.

I don't really experience most of these as feel-good activities. There is some work involved in most and at times it's a burden - like today when one of the destroyed souls from Burma came in to talk with me when I was already going 90 miles an hour. But so it goes.

Here's the thing, I'm keeping on in hopes that other people will also keep on and someday I believe that Burma will be a better place. Montyman and Zeke said something about the importance of individuals going to Burma and being engaged and thus bringing hope to the people there.

I hope I'm still alive when things get better. I wish I didn't have so many years and did have more energy. I could dig taking medical care into Karen and Kachin areas and the ugly townships near Rangoon, etc. where internal exiles live. A couple of years ago, someone from Soros suggested I put in a grant application. To my dismay (and shame), I just didn't have the energy to commit to the necessary 3 years and to more than the little I'm doing now.

I truly believe Burma will someday be a better place and in the meantime, I'm keeping on in the ways I can.

Refugees

Edited by: stumbling in The Dharma

Myanmar opposition vs Goliath
By Charles McDermid and Swe Win

In Myanmar, a political deadlock has endured for decades and both sides are aging. It is the hope of the nation's pro-democracy movement that within the crucible of recent events a new political dynamic may somehow be born.

Senior General Than Shwe, an ex-postman who advanced through the ranks during the government's bloody campaigns against ethnic insurgents to become chief of the ruling junta, is 76, and reportedly in poor health. Nobel Peace prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi, who has led the pro-democracy movement for more than 20 years, is 63, and sitting in a notorious government prison with little hope of freedom.
~
~
Among the many other things Suu Kyi said was this: in July 1989 she told the military generals even before her first house arrest that they must choose utter devastation or dialogue. By utter devastation, she meant that the country would become a failed state if things kept going as they were.

Now sitting in Insein Prison in 2009, Suu Kyi may be contemplating how very right she was.

Swe Win is a former political prisoner now working as a freelance reporter.

Charles McDermid is an Asia Times Online correspondent based in Thailand.

Additional reporting by Jakkapun Kaewsangthong in Bangkok.

As said Tan Schwe well knows the outcome for him, in the Human rights court at the Hague, should he hand over to democracy (whatever ASSK and the NLD party's idea of that is)
He is a greedy little despot, lacking vision and intellect, I was going to say still apostman but that would be an insult to postmen. who uses the countries $'s for his own purposes and he does not Bank it in Burma either lol.
As for not having OIL Burma is rich in Oil in the days of the Raj Burma oil was world renowned and still the country has rich oil and gas reserves The Koreans and TOTAL are not there for philanthropical altruism. It is rich in natural resources in minerals, gems. plus the drugs. A country whereby one general controls all imports, try import a car privately into Burma where there are vehicles in far better condition scrapped in Uk than exist in Burma.
Or when you see advances in infrastucture and I don't include the short strip of EU standard motorway that runs from Nayapidu the new capital to the airport (just in case the Generals need to get away fast)
look who owns the construction comanies that have the road building contracts.
Buying loyalty and spies like the Stasi of Honicker in East Germany takes up a lot of the economy, also provides employment lol That must hit the generals pockets deeply
We are not powerless, but whatever we do is a drop in the ocean, but take heart all despots end up the same way as that old cobbler Ceausescu found out to his cost. also take comfort that those who rule by fear live in fear. and travel with passion not politics even if we despair at the misery and suffering some of this Earths governments impose on it's people, at least we all feel for them.

BARBER'S CHAIR
Suu Kyi’s Letter of Thanks to Than Shwe
By THE IRRAWADDY Friday, May 22, 2009

Dear Senior-General,

I trust you will excuse my handwriting. I am writing by candlelight. It seems there is not much electricity in this part of Rangoon these days.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. After so many years of looking out at Inya Lake, a change of scenery was most welcome, although I must confess I am somewhat disappointed with the décor and landscape gardening in my new compound.

Most importantly though, I must thank you for your unflinching political support. I thought that the world had forgotten about me, but you made sure that my face reappeared on TV all over the world.

You had previously cautioned foreign governments not to focus so much on one person (me), but now you have magnanimously ensured that my name is on the lips of every diplomat in Rangoon.

The international community has a reputation for having a short attention span. Thanks to your efforts, Burma is back on the front pages of the newspapers.

I believe that the US and the EU were in a bit of a pickle about how to handle the economic sanctions issue and recognition of next year’s election.

Now, thanks to your clear-cut methods and no-nonsense approach, those countries will have no hesitation in making decisions with regard to the Burmese government’s status.

In fact, talking of the election, on behalf of my party, the NLD, let me also thank you for your PR efforts on our behalf. With so many members in prison and so few opportunities to canvas for contributions, we have not been able to promote our democratic cause as we would like over the last few years.

However, as you have single-handedly reminded the population of Burma of the differences between right and wrong, between truth and deceit and between justice and farce, I am sure we won’t need any other marketing campaigns to generate support. You have become the pro-democracy movement’s greatest benefactor. Well done!

If you ever find yourself overthrown by an internal coup, don’t hesitate to give the NLD a call. We always need a PR agent like you on our books.

And, of course, thanks for the exposure to your military justice system. I have been waiting a long time to see it up close and personal. Next time you permit reporters and diplomats in the courtroom, might I request that you invite the Australian ambassador? After all, with his experience in the Australian outback I am sure he will have a better understanding of a kangaroo court. (Lol!)

At least here in Insein I should be safe from crazy intruders. You would think that with all the security forces and intelligence personnel that the government has at its disposal that it would be impossible for even James Bond to get past them.

But I suppose if a secret agent disguised himself as a middle-aged, overweight, delusional American skinny-dipper then he would be a lot more difficult to catch. Right?

Anyway, I am sure you are busy with your Naypyidaw projects, so I won’t take up any more of your precious time.

Thank you again for everything you have done for our country. After the Burmese people have democracy, please allow us to reciprocate.

Yours in captivity,

Aung San Suu Kyi
Insein Prison

Rambo 3 (banned in Burma for some reason?) is on his way, as we speak to release the lady

Well, it appears the people of Myanmar don't agree with sanctions either; See this Facebook group. Most of the members are Burmese.

Burma : no more sanctions and isolation but more aid and negotiation

Here's one to add to the 8 things to do above: I learned yesterday that a former student of mine quit her job and she and another person from her church are starting a nonprofit focusing on assistance to Burmese people here (most of whom are Karen, Chin or Kachin) and also, I think, in Thailand and the border. She was already doing a lot in her job in refugee screening and a ton of volunteer work, but I guess it wasn't enough for her.

The Burmese term for refugee is dukkha-the+, "one who has to bear +dukkha (suffering)"

Edited by: Wandering deep into the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness

just a footnote Chas my Burmese friend Cherry is recovering in Mae sot and her mum is now with her, so looks OK for her now, thanks for your thoughts

Here's a few more good luck messages from the West...

Suu Kyi's prosecution has prompted international criticism, with nine Nobel laureates -- including Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa -- calling it a "mockery."

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called the charges against Suu Kyi "baseless" and accused the junta of "continuing resistance to a free and open electoral process."

"Aung San Suu Kyi's continued detention, isolation, and show trial based on spurious charges cast serious doubt on the Burmese regime's willingness to be a responsible member of the international community," Mr Obama said in a statement.

"It is time for the Burmese government to drop all charges against Aung San Suu Kyi and unconditionally release her and her fellow political prisoners," he added.

Thanks for that Barak, I'm sure that'll do the trick.

Well Kananga, it does not matter what anyone says....they are going to do whatever they want to do with her...so maybe you should not make fun of some world leaders comments.

Norm, thats exactly the reason why we should make fun of the comments, because thats all they are prepared to do. Comment. No action at all, just comment about their 'outrage' and 'deep concern'.
We aren't talking about people like Bun Cha who signs petitions and prays for her release we are talking about the people who CAN make a difference. who want to let the world know they 'care' but do absolutely nothing about it. If we made fun of them more often and let them know we dont take their hollow concerns seriously they may actually do more than just comment.

Where's Rambo gone just when you need him? what would you have them do Kananga go in like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan especially as Koreas leader has called Americas possible interference as a declaration of war

Rambo is off catching snakes.
Stick a carrier off the coast and have Tom Cruise do some flybys over Naypyidaw and then have Mel Gibson and Liam Neeson lead the uprising.
Chow Yun Fat can be the new Emperor of the democratic republic of Burmayanmar.

And still nothing positive or constructive to add to the discussion - Unbelievable! Can't even write with accuracy or honesty. Yes, I pray for Burma. I also do #s 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8 (below) - and I encourage others to do what they can. As I noted elsewhere, one of my former students is starting an organization to assist Burmese refugees (not "expats" - for the ignorant and negative among us), so I'll add that as #9.

1. Respect what people of good heart are doing, regardless of whether you agree with their actions.

2. Pray, with heart and soul for freedom and relief of suffering among people in and from Burma.

3. Spend a few hours every week, faithfully, serving people from Burma in your community (believe me, they need help).

4. Be a part of a greater effort to keep Burma in the minds of your leaders by writing to your Congressional leaders, President, newspaper and so on. Let them know what you think are good options, e.g., pressuring China.

5. Inform others about Burma, including the beauty and the problems. If you’re a teacher, teach your students or you could do something on the internet – whatever your assets might be.

6. Get involved with the Open Society Institute (Soros Foundation).

7. Go to Burma and take medicine, money, whatever (gotta be more than just showing up) OR participate in Helen’s effort.

8. Don’t lose heart.

Refugees - some of the links are broken as I no longer have access to editing the site

Edited by: Real life

Temptation comes in many forms. There are things that may entice, like (some forms of) sex, drugs, gluttony, and the like. And there are things less enticing, but on a weird level still tempting, like giving in to revulsion or anger or pity.

Interesting isn't it, to think that one could be so negative and inane that a person of mostly good will, who has spent much of his life working for the betterment of humanity, would be tempted to give in to a strange combination of revulsion, anger, and pity at such dedicated negativity and ignorance. But so it goes and in the end, opinions are like, well, you know, everyone has one. All that really matters is what you or I DO.

by-by

Guess you're not as strong as you thought you were all these years. Don't worry though, I'll pray for you. That'll help.

Latest News-

YANGON, Myanmar (CNN) -- The Myanmar court trying opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi heard testimony Wednesday from the man who swam to her house, sparking her trial on subversion charges.

Officials in Myanmar say this self-portrait was found on John Yettaw's digital camera.
1 of 2

John Yettaw, a 53-year-old former U.S. military serviceman from Falcon, Missouri, was examined for nearly three hours. In giving his answers to the judge, Yettaw frequently repeated that God sent him to Myanmar to protect Suu Kyi because he had a dream that a terrorist group would assassinate her.

Yettaw also testified that four or five policemen saw him swimming across the lake to reach Suu Kyi's house. They didn't shoot at him, Yettaw said, but they threw rocks.

He also testified that he had tried and failed to enter her house once before. Police found him, questioned him, and then released him, Yettaw testified.

That testimony fits with the defense's assertion that the government failed to protect Suu Kyi at the crumbling colonial-era house where she has been kept under house arrest.

The court also heard Wednesday from the two housekeepers who are Suu Kyi's sole companions in the heavily guarded residence and are her co-defendants at the trial. Each was examined for about half an hour.

The court is expected to hear from one more witness Thursday.

Nyan Win, a spokesman for Suu Kyi's political party, the National League for Democracy, complained that the court was violating Suu Kyi's rights because the judge rejected three of four defense witnesses. By contrast, he said, the court rejected only nine of 23 government witnesses. Watch the U.N. secretary general explain what he is doing for Suu Kyi »

Yettaw swam to Suu Kyi's home May 3. The government says Yettaw's presence violated the conditions of Suu Kyi's house arrest.

The country's regime rarely allows Suu Kyi any visitors, and foreigners are not allowed overnight stays in local households without government permission.

Suu Kyi, 63, has been under house arrest for 13 of the past 19 years -- a confinement the military junta has regularly extended.

Her latest round of home detention -- after five years of confinement -- expired Wednesday, according to her supporters at home and abroad.

Myanmar's ruling junta, however, says Suu Kyi's house arrest does not expire for six more months.

U.S. man tried with Suu Kyi wanted to film her
Myanmar's Suu Kyi: I did not violate house arrest
Neighbors describe man at center of Suu Kyi case
And though the government said it considered releasing her at the end of the term, it said it had no choice but to try her after she met with Yettaw.

"As Aung San Suu Kyi is the daughter of Gen. Aung San, the leader of our country, we were deeply thinking whether to extend her detention or not," Police Brig. Gen. Myint Thein told reporters Tuesday. "Unfortunately, a U.S. citizen entered her house for two days. She allowed and made conversation with him, gave him food.

"These kind of actions broke the law. This is why we have no way but to open a case. And we are very sad about this case."

Gen. Aung San played an instrumental role in bringing about the country's independence from British colonial rule. He was assassinated in 1947 and is still revered in Myanmar, also known as Burma.

Suu Kyi's lawyers rejected the junta's explanation, saying the United Nations has deemed the opposition leader's continuing detention unlawful under Myanmar's state protection laws.

Her supporters say the trial is meant to keep her confined even longer -- beyond the general elections that the junta has scheduled for next year.

If convicted, Suu Kyi could be sentenced to three to five years in prison.

Yettaw is charged with violating immigration laws and trespassing. The charges carry a maximum sentence of five years in prison on conviction.

A lawyer selected by the U.S. Embassy is representing him.

The National League for Democracy won more than 80 percent of the legislative seats in the 1990 elections, but Suu Kyi was disqualified from serving because of her house arrest, and the military junta ignored the results.

Party members Wednesday celebrated the 19th anniversary of that election victory. The celebration at party headquarters in Yangon brought together about 200 members along with a group of foreign diplomats.

Interesting isn't it, to think that one could be so negative and inane that a person of mostly good will, who has spent much of his life working for the betterment of humanity, would be tempted to give in to a strange combination of revulsion, anger, and pity at such dedicated negativity and ignorance.

I must say, I'm slightly taken aback at such strong and negative words.
It's always been an observation of mine that people who go on and on about how much good they do and how they work towards the 'betterment of humanity' rarely actually do any good at all, while the people who actually do positive things and make a difference are quietly getting on with it without feeling the need to tell eveyone repeatedly. Perhaps thats why you so quickly feel revulsion and anger towards some harmless criticism instead of compassion and forgiveness like Jesus taught us. You have a lot to learn about life my friend, and I will pray that you find some inner peace.

The Mechanics of Suu Kyi s Trial

That about sums it up Mosegrisen.....

As we await the courts and the generals justice here's an eye opener on ITV's despatches last week about the orphans from Nargis and the generals indifference to the suffering of Burmas people
nargis orphans

From Shanland.org

Why are you muddying the water. Credit: David Law

Rangoon: a tale of two cities amidst political turmoil
by Celeste Chenard

Friday, 05 June 2009 15:46

In the past, a deteriorating economic situation has led to protests that inevitably took on a political overtone. Less than two years ago, in September 2007, the military brutally crushed protests originally ignited by an overnight drastic rise in the cost of fuel. Similarly, the massive unrest of 1988 came after years of disastrous socialist economic policies – and the instant demonetization of much of the currency – left a population desperate for reform.

Given the current political and economic climate in Burma, could history again repeat itself in the form of a mass uprising?

In a repressive state such as Burma, many people live in constant fear – including financial fear. Although some people have discreetly shown their dissatisfaction with the behaviour of the authorities in placing Aung San Suu Kyi on trial – gathering in front of Insein Prison in support of the detained Nobel Laureate – the streets of Rangoon are generally absent of a sense of civil uprising. People surely care about the fate of 'The Lady' and greatly respect her, but are at present more interested in simply surviving than in politics.

Nonetheless, who can predict the reaction of the population when the final verdict against Suu Kyi is announced? Even though the streets of Rangoon may be full of fortune-tellers – valued commodities to both rich and poor alike, in Burma it is often wise to expect the unexpected.

(Additional writing by Joseph Ball.)

Junta to put Aung San Suu Kyi under house arrest again

by Mizzima News

Tuesday, 09 June 2009 11:22

I would have never guessed :(

Online petition and praying didnt work then?

depends from what perspective Kananga and also what you pray for, one thing about Burma unlike some Sth East Asian countries has freedom of worship,however restrictive, just don't mess with the Generals. If Gen Tan Schwe dies as he soon will, then Maung A will control an even crueler hold on the country, their God is their belly, the only alternative for them is at the Hague court of international Human Rights for genocide.

Classic -- let's make them suffer longer. In the same breath:

U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and Senator
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) on Tuesday called on their colleagues to quickly approve their legislation, “The Burmese Freedom and Democracy Act,” which renews sanctions against the Burmese junta.

“Now is the time for Congress to send another strong message to the SPDC: the United States continues to stand squarely with the long-suffering people of Burma in their quest for democracy and reconciliation,” Senator McConnell said.

I find it ironical that the military regime actually failed to stop an intruder from entering Aung San Suu Kyi's home considering how heavily guarded her place was meant to be. If Myanmar's military is really this pi55weak, then God help Generals in the event of an invasion from international forces.

Anyway, it's good to see that she's under house arrest rather than in prison. At least that's a step in the better direction.

"If Gen Tan Schwe dies as he soon will, then Maung A will"

Since when did Tan Shwe become a German name? It's Shwe without the C! .. and you do this ALL the time montyman! ;)

My humblest of apologies sarrahjane It's my interpretation of others interpretation of Burmese script, I promise to try and be more careful in the future. My excuse is I am mindless and yet my keyboard seems to have a mind of it's own. Please please forgive me it's my keyboards fault.
Does this gross act of mispelling entitle me to free lunch at the Insein club with you know who?

no need to apologise montyman, just don't do it again. :) lol!

verschwuldigen sarrahjane, but does that mean to say you've forgiven me :-(((

Junta Immune To Swine Flu

Here ya go -- the James Bond of activists:
[http://asiantribune.com/06/13/sunday-celebrity-david-selvaraj-works-to-transform-conflict-into-peace/]

The tighter the chains

HARN LAY / THE IRRAWADDY

Instant karma in Myanmar

By Sudha Ramachandran and Swe Win / Asia Times Online

Interesting reminder mosegrisen of the 45kyat and 90 kyat bank notes, get up early to bargain as lucky money rules then with a flourish and wave of the kyat notes after the deal has been struck at market stalls and shops
General Ne Win, who seized power in 1962, was guided in his decisions by a belief that the number nine was his lucky number. In September 1987, he introduced the 45 kyat and 90 kyat bank notes because they are divisible by nine and their digits add up to nine. An astrologer reportedly told him that he would live for 90 years if he did - he died aged 92. It is said that Ne Win used to walk backwards on bridges to ward off evil.
Tan Shwe is also extremly superstitious person and like many famous world leaders uses Astrology and the occult and to guide his decisions. Just have to see where it lead Hitler Mussolini and Bush all of whom had the same misguided trust in Astrologers & soothsayers, despite their alleged "Christian" persona.

I've got some of those 45 and 90 kyat notes. And a few FECs. Wonder if they're worth anything.

FEC's still worth same in Myanmar and also in use as business currency

An educated call to 2010 elections participation by the indecisive NLD, inspired by the current Iran situation that everyone there is closely watching, with even an idea to create a motive for China to withdraw their knee-jerk UN veto:

Thinking outside the box
by Bo Kyaw Nyein

excerpts:

...current junta Supremo General Than Shwe uses poverty, time and space as tools of suppression concerning the general public. When people are struggling for their own survival they do not have the time or means to finance political opposition.... As time passes on, the opposition becomes depressed and hopeless.

The military has even created a think-tank, the Office of Strategic Studies (OSS), to formulate and implement strategies to counter Western economic sanctions. The wooing of the triumvirate of China, India and ASEAN as well as promotion of the policies of constructive engagement and the so-called 7-step roadmap are all OSS products.

It is the failure of the opposition, especially those in exile, not to have created a think-tank to study military thinking and formulate strategies and policies to counter political offenses initiated by the State Peace and Development Council (SPDC), the official name of today's Burmese military junta. The result of this critical shortcoming is obvious – the opposition still clings to an outdated strategy of pressuring the SPDC to come to the negotiating table via Western economic sanctions and the threat of UN Security Council action.

...it has been a dilemma for the NLD in deciding whether to join or boycott the election.

...However, if the NLD does not participate in the election they lose by default.

...Like it or not, the reality is that the opposition is presently dead in the water with no proper infrastructure, organization or strategy at its disposal. It is time to smell the coffee, take a risk, and change the plan.

...It is time to move from passive non-violence to active non-violence, and fight to win. Otherwise, history will condemn our generation.

===============
And an interview with U Win Tin, the recently released dissident hardliner mentioned in the above editorial:

Moral authority in Myanmar

Yes Monty.. not to mention the change to the right by Ne Win.

LA Times: THE MYANMAR DILEMMA
Los Angeles Times - Sunday, August 11, 1996

Then there is the traffic. The prevailing explanation is that Ne Win's astrologer told him that left was unlucky, and so in 1974 Ne Win rewrote the nation's British-devised traffic system, instructing that cars would henceforth drive on the right side of the road.
But since the country is so poor and trade so feeble, the streets of Yangon today are a jumble of battered bicycles with sidecars, some newish cars and many older, British
style, right-hand-drive vehicles, whose drivers crane their necks to see while jouncing down the right side of the road.

But what to make of this then?

Suspicious N. Korean Ship to Dock in Burma Soon
By MIN LWIN - Monday, June 22, 2009

North Korean vessel exposes Pyongyang-Naypyitaw axis
by Mungpi, MIZZIMA - Monday, 22 June 2009 20:01

Can you give me some of those?
HARN LAY / THE IRRAWADDY - Monday, June 22, 2009

North Korean Ship Carries Weapons

By HYUNG-JIN KIM / AP WRITER - Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Is this story starting to get (sea) legs...?

Edited by: mosegrisen

this always makes me laugh at least in Sweden when they did it they then gradually changed all the cars over to Left Hand Drive, but it creates employment in Burma because the buses are all the same buses since the 6,000 Chevvy buses were bought from America by the British so even most of the buses are RHD and have to have a co driver to look out when overtaking on bends, In Thailand and Laos etc they have a Bhudda in box on the dash board to prevent accidents so no need of a co driver

Ancient buses aren't the only right-handed Chevies imported into Burma, monty -- check this stylin' Yangon ride.

Total - ly involved

On a lighter note is anyone heading for the balloon festival Taungyyi 26th October -1st November or anyone there during November?

sure,
you told me to go Montyman.
Kirsten

I take it the praying and petitions didnt work then?

as Goethe once wrote:
" there's none more hopelssly enslaved
Than those who falsely think they're free"
as for prayers they do work but just depends what you pray for
Mat 6:10 Rev 21:3,4
now I'm in Yangshou heading sowly from here to longshen and kaille and then onto kumming and laos
sadly I will miss the balloon festival this year and the early release of ASSK and arrive inle around 6th
best wishes for all who get t the balloon festival though