Landlord's steal my money, I don't like it very much

Anyone else think that charging "reikin", or thank-you money, for moving into a new apartment in Japan is daylight robbery?

I mean come on! As if actually paying rent wasn't "thanks" enough...

And while at it, the "shikikin" system is also crazy- several months rent deposit, which you may or may not see again based entirely on the abitrary wishes of the landlord, not on assessing if you've actually caused any damage. So they could simply claim they "have to" replace all the tatami and wallpaper, and swipe the whole bundle.

What a stupid stupid system!!

Yup, reikin is a stupid system, and many Japanese complain about it too. You see, that concept is based on the old tradition that the landlord was more or less a true "lord" who took care of people in more ways than just renting a place to live in. People offered the gift to thank the "lord" for taking care of themselves or their relatives who would be in the "lord's" care. The word for the landlord, "ooya," sort of rhymes with "oya (parent)," and so there is even an old saying that an "ooya" is just like your "oya."

Everyone in Japan knows today that one's "ooya" is not at all like an "oya," and yet this old system persists to a large extent. It's a rip-off that everyone, except for the landlords of course, acknowledges as evil.

I do not know your background, but in the U.S., where I am, there is a shikikin, or a damage deposit, and oh yes, problems involving the demage deposit abound. That is not necessarily a Japan-unique situation, I think.

In some major US cities (NYC and Boston come to mind), there is often a reikin-like fee that tenants have to pay, and as Jacksan1 says, everybody in the US who has been a renter has a damage deposit story to tell...I have seen damage deposits of 2 months rent here, and the standard is one month...and some landlords just don't want to refund it and invent "damage" you have done to the apartment to justify keeping it...so see, it's tough for renters all over (the world)...

Deposits for security are not stupid. Don't you pay them back home? If you feel you have been overcharged for some damage, take it up with them professionally and legally.

If you don't want to pay reikin, find the rare landlord that doesn't ask for it. Emphasis on the word "rare".

Don't like the situation, live in a guest house or go home. I'm sorry but you should have known what you were facing before you came and agreed to the situation.

Thanks jacksan1, I didn't realise that about reikin. And I concede deposit money is standard practice, it just appears a bit more arbitrary in Japan as to whether you get it back or not. Maybe thats not the case though.

Glenski, if you read my post I didn't say deposits are stupid, I said the system is by which I meant the very large sums you pay (2 to 3 months rent is more than I thought it would be), and the arbitrary nature of returning the deposit. I don't particularly like the system but your comments of "live in a guest house or go home" are very unhelpful, I was raising the issue of reikin in particular for discussion as it seemed odd and unnecessary to me, and theres no need for your negative attitude.

daylight robbery counts as "stupid" to me. You simply don't like reikin. Fine, that's your prerogative. It may be odd and unnecessary to you, but what do you plan to do -- change the whole real estate culture of Japan? You can't, and that's why I suggested guest house, going home, or (and you obviously didn't pick up on this one, so don't call me completely negative) finding a realtor that doesn't charge reikin. Moreover, what other options (guest house, not living here) can you think of? You don't have to like them, but they ARE options, whether you label them as helpful or not. One negotiates, finds a realtor that has clients that already don't use this sytem, or you avoid the process altogether. The only other option I can think of is buying a house or mansion, but I felt those were not in the realm of this discussion, nor are they suitable for everyone, so I didn't bring them up. Do you have another solution?

Your remark of "arbitrary wishes of the landlord" is overly general, too. There are laws, I believe, about wear and tear. Can't find them at this second, but I probalby could, if pressed.

I have rented 3 apartments here, and in every case, I got back 95% of my deposits. Have other people been charged a huge amount and not gotten their money back? Yes, of course. Did they fight back? Couldn't tell you, but I've seen lots of people complain about these things online, and only a few decided to fight back. Some people tried, but they had obviously not read their contracts well enough, or they had caused sufficient damage to warrant the fees. Some got their money. Some landlords may have "arbitrary" ways of deciding how to charge you, but the 3 that I dealt with were very fair. Two sent their managers to the building the day I moved out instead of waiting for when I wasn't there and making their "arbitrary" decisions.

So, I guess one could offer a bit of advice in trying to cajol the managers to come and discuss the whole situation before one is long gone and later surprised (and often in no position to debate) matters. Not so negative now.

This is a good site from a realtor, with explanations on housing in great detail in Japanese and English.

Go to the last page and see a fairly nice description of what to do when moving out. An earlier page tells you the obvious things a renter should do when moving in to ensure he doesn't get screwed by a landlord who says the renter damaged something, when it was actually damaged before moving in.

Don't get me started about reikin etc. Next month we have to pay double rent because our two year contract is up for renewal- grrr. What a waste of money. Nothing we can do of course other than move, which would mean paying reikin to another landlord. Since I am actually the landlord of an apartment in NZ, I wish I could be on the receiving end of reikin, but all tenants have to pay in NZ is 2 or 3 weeks bond, which I don't see.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>It may be odd and unnecessary to you, but what do you plan to do -- change the whole real estate culture of Japan?<hr></blockquote>

Yes, Glenski, thats exactly what I meant. Actually I was merely commenting on an aspect of Japanese culture and calling it rather dumb, a fact that everyone else seems to agree with but you who, as always, insists on nit-picking.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>I have rented 3 apartments here, and in every case, I got back 95% of my deposits.<hr></blockquote>

Thats probably because you're such a palatable tennant Glenski.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Not so negative now.<hr></blockquote>

You're right, you turned that gloom into rays of sunshine.

the key money is the easy part. it's finding a landlord willing to rent to a gaijin in the first place that's really frustrating...

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>a fact that everyone else seems to agree with<hr></blockquote>Steve, only 4 other people are responding here (above from your post that mentioned this point). One DIDN'T agree with that. And, as for the 3, well, not exactly an astouding set of statistics.

Is it dumb? No, there is a logic to it, and a traditional one at that.
Is it fair, or accommodating, or something else negative? Sure. I agree wholeheartedly, but I have not found any realtor/landlord who doesn't ask for such money, so I abide by the custom and pay. Begrudgingly at time, yes, but I guess you need lessons in being a "palatable tennant [sic]" in order to get your money back.

I see my realistic, practical suggestions and informative links have fallen on deaf ears (and blind eyes). Go ahead and be sarcastic and juvenile with your "ray of sunshine" cracks, but at least I have provided reasonable alternatives. You just whine.

You wanna change the whole renting culture of Japan, eh? Be my guest. I would think there are bigger windmills to tilt at.

Deaf ears AND blind eyes eh? Thats quite a situation I'm in. And a bit of whining is good every once in a while; the other 75% of posters on this thread don't seem to mind.

I'll tilt at any windmill I want too, so there.

Hey hey guys.

The Leo Palace 21 chain of apartments requires neither reikin or shikikin. What they are doing is to observe the frustration that people in Japan, natives and gaijin alike, have expressed over the years and to turn that frustration into their marketing strategy by saying, "We guys are different. We are on your side by not requiring the stupid reikin." Whether or not Leo Palace is really on the renters' side is debatable, but at least they don't pretend to be the lords who generously take care of the subjects and therefore deserve to be thanked with a cash gift.

Although Leo Palace is really a "one-room mansion" type place which I am not all that fond of, if I had to rent a place right now I'd seriously consider them.

steve,
No need to get childish about things. But if that's your way. I still don't see you making any suggestions, realistic or otherwise, to resolve the situation. I, on the other hand, have.

Jacksan,
Yes, LeoPalace21 does that, however, you have to pay for all of your rent up front, plus incur a cleaning service fee. So, in the end, it amounts to paying a whopping whole lot more if you plan to stay for a year, and you certainly have to pay more just to move in.

I never said I did have any suggestions! I merely highlighted the issue at the start of this thread. However it appears impossible to have a reasoned debate in the face of such self-righteousness and pomposity, with your "realistic, practical suggestions and informative links", so I admit I succumbed to the urge to inject some much needed sarcasm into the thread.

It is clear there is a mutual disagreement and I'm sure most people are getting tired of this rather petty spat, so I leave it at that.

I've never rented in Japan, however I have just read the link in post #6, which includes the concise summary:

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Moving into a new apartment is very expensive in Japan. You will typically need to pay the equivalent of five or six months' rent up front<hr></blockquote>
and
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>reikin will amount to the equivalent of 2 months' rent, but occasionally you can find an apartment requiring only 1 month or so. Reikin is a mandatory non-refundable gift to the owner. <hr></blockquote>

I'm with stevesayskanpai, this system is stupid in absolute terms and there is nothing wrong with someone just coming out and saying it's stupid. It may be the way things are, but it's still stupid. It adds signifcantly to the cost of doing business for companies who bring in overseas employees, it is bad for Japanese as if they change jobs they may find they have an additional cost when changing apartment to live closer to their work.

It is also completely at odds with the renting system anywhere else in the world AFAIK, where equivalent demands would either be illegal or be met with a two word reply initialed by 'F' and 'Y'

Grouchski, not getting back any deposit because you " stained " the tatami is well worth it. num num

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>I never said I did have any suggestions! I merely highlighted the issue at the start of this thread. However it appears impossible to have a reasoned debate<hr></blockquote>steve, what debate are we having here? You say it's stupid. You don't like it. Ok, I'm putting out logical, practical alternatives here. THAT'S DISCUSSION. You asked for precisely that, so don't harp about it. You want to b!tch and moan, fine. Once is enough, but until you come up with something more substantial than mere complaints, it's not a discussion.

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>It is clear there is a mutual disagreement <hr></blockquote>Have you read what I wrote? Not once have I written that I support such a system, only that I understand and accept it and am willing to do what it takes to get my fair share out of it. I have provided quite a bit of useful information for people to make their own decisions here. So, in a sense, I agree with you on some points. But, you just seem to want to complain as if that will solve anything. It won't, except to vent some frustration, but that's all. What did you honestly expect to gain from venting here, other than an emotional release anyway?

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>I'll tilt at any windmill I want too, so there. <hr></blockquote>Tilting at windmills, in case you didn't know, means to attack something futilely with hopes of defeating it. You're not doing that. You're just saying you don't like something. It's just as futile, if not more so, but it is not accomplishing anything, and you come off as a very juvenile debater.

Telephoto wrote:
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>It adds signifcantly to the cost of doing business for companies who bring in overseas employees, it is bad for Japanese as if they change jobs they may find they have an additional cost when changing apartment to live closer to their work.<hr></blockquote>Now we're having a discussion! Companies often have their own dormitories or used apartments, so they don't have to pay key money over and over again. So that argument may be true in some cases, but not in everyone. How many? I don't know, but you can't make this out to be the norm. [By the way, just so you know, I have changed apartments three times now, and had to pay each time for the setup costs, so I'm not a person who has had the luxury of not footing the bill.]

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>It is also completely at odds with the renting system anywhere else in the world AFAIK<hr></blockquote>"At odds?" That means it competes with such systems. Clearly, the Japanese system does not do that. It is its own unique (and unlikable and expensive) tradition. Of course, in another country where this is not done, the answer would be FY, but we are not talking about another country. That's comparing apples and oranges.

As I've said before about many things that Japan has to offer, if a person doesn't research about it beforehand, one is going to be surprised. That goes for any country, of course. If one goes regardless of knowing such drawbacks, one has no right to complain about it. No one put a gun to one's head to come and live there. This may sound harsh, but it is reality.

Even if someone does prior research and then turns up and is faced with something they dont like (ie Japanese apartment renting system), why shouldn't they be justified in complaining about it? They can still enjoy the Japan lifestyle package, while not being happy about one element.

Maybe if many people complain about it, some enterprising Japanese company will set up an apartment building in Japan which caters to foreigners or others on short (<1 year) stays who don't want to pay and this will be their competitive advantage.

Why should a company own an apartment so they don't have to keep paying this dead money? Companies are in business to make widgets or whatever they do, not to be in the staff accommodation business. Managing apartments just adds to the costs and means that (i) they have to buy an apartment, which ties up money that could be used elsewhere or (ii) they have to pay key money over and over again which is a disincentive to bringing people over.

First you imply I'm tilting at windmills, then you tell me I'm not! Make your mind up Grumpski. And while you may think of me as a "juvenile debator", I prefer to think of myself as a man of the people, backed by popular forum support, fighting against the evil tyranny of the Grumps-machine and its pompous conservatism.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Telephoto wrote:
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Even if someone does prior research and then turns up and is faced with something they dont like (ie Japanese apartment renting system), why shouldn't they be justified in complaining about it? <hr></blockquote>I can't point out the illogic in this statement any more clearly than you've already made it. Let me give it one more go.
1) X wants to come to Japan.
2) X does extensive research and discovers something he doesn't like, but comes anyway.
3) X complains about it.
Why should he feel he can complain? He already knew the problem existed and came. Go ahead and complain. It's your right, X, but you KNEW what to expect!

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>Why should a company own an apartment so they don't have to keep paying this dead money?<hr></blockquote>Again, you obviously don't even understand the most basic concepts here. They own (or rent) the apartments specifically so they don't have to pay the "dead money"! Employees keep drifting in and out, so there is turnaround and no periods when people are not occupying such places. What is it about this concept you didn't understand?

Moreover, these apartments are usually old ones and in low-rent or low-tax districts, and often very close to the company itself.

steve,
I see you have resorted to more childish sandbox debating strategies -- name-calling. If you can't be an adult, who is going to take you seriously?

I wrote:
<blockquote>Quote
<hr>You wanna change the whole renting culture of Japan, eh? Be my guest. I would think there are bigger windmills to tilt at. <hr></blockquote>Trying to change the system is tilting at windmills. You just B!TCH about it. That's NOT attempting to change it.

Popular forum support? FOUR people! Well, you may see that as a majority, but I also see 3 others here (including myself) that have had other things to say. Your popularity margin is thin. Just what is it that you are so hopping mad about, anyway? You're a "man of the people", you say. What people is that? When you can explain that without the immature brandishing of names like a kindergartener, I'll take you seriously.

I have no problem with you not taking me seriously Glenski, I often don't take myself seriously, and certainly do not take you seriously.

Telephoto on the other hand makes a valid point, simply asserting the right to complain (as I did) and have others chip in with the complaining if they so agree. This- as you admit- is his right. So let's just leave it at that, a simply difference of opinion. Telephoto and myself believe its fine to bitch about something that annoys us, even if we can do nothing about it. You on the other hand do not like complaining about a situation that is unchageable. Fair enough.

And so (hopefully) endeth this long thread.

I just have to say that this delightful little post has made me chuckle at the end of a very boring day at work!

Thanks

It's all about TIPPING UP under the feudal master-vassal system.

Japanese claim there is no TIPPING in their country, but there is. You tip UP instead of tip DOWN.

That is, you tip the doctor when you want a recommendation to a surgeon and you tip the landlord to get into an apartment. You don't tip the waiter or the cab driver.

That's it . In sum.