Lost Tibet

Province of China Xizang, world government's accept since 50 years plus.

OP, see if you can get the book titled "Mapping the Tibetan World" published in 2000. Explains a lot.

I guess in a few years even the TAR designation will disappear. Too bad.

And very wrong, just ask the Sami of Scandinavia, who 's history is just as bad as anything happening to the Tibetan people during the cultural revolution.

Free Sikkim!

You have to read both side. Western materials on Tibet is too much of propaganda and hate speech. I read it on the Internet every day. I have also met some Westerners in person. They read and only read from these materials, and then tell these one-side stories to others they know. It is easily to be "brainwashed", much like an infectious disease.

For every major issue in the world, there must be some reason behind it. I have been to Tibet for six times, as well as Dharamshala in India, where the current Dalai Lama live in exile. I see his holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, who is currently living in a poor Indian mountainous town with monkeys (There are many monkeys in the region.), leaving his mighty Potala Palace behind. As Chinese, I feel really sorry to him. I hope the government lets him back. I know he wanted to be back.

Tibetan people is no different from other people in China. They are Chinese citizens. English is not a good language to describe this situation, because the lacks of a word to describe this nation in East Asia. They are usually calling it "China", but when they are talking about "China", they tend to have only the Han ethnic group (92% of total Chinese population) included.

Chinese is calling their own country "Zhongguo", a nation entity within its implicit boundary. Anyone live within this boundary is its citizen. While a native American can be a citizen of the United States, an European, if he decided to move to North America, he can also be a citizen of the United States. "Zhongguo", as a big and vast country, has many distinct ethnic groups, with their own distinct culture and language. Tibetan is just one of them.

It was not Mao who invaded Tibet 50 years ago. There was a world order in East Asia, completely different from the modern world order established by the West. Under this world order, Tibetan people have been, together with Mongolian, Manchuian and Han Chinese people, live in a same dynasty called the Great Qing for hundreds of years. Since the fall of Qing in 1912, many people consider Tibet still part of the new nation, called Republic of China. You can find a map of Republic of China published in 1910s or 1920s. China was a weak then, it is the chaos created by the British-led West. It is the West who is the troublemaker.

Tibetan people are the first class citizens of "Zhongguo". If this country become a democracy one day. They can vote, like anyone else in the nation. Dalai Lama, as a citizen of "Zhongguo", if he want, he can be voted as the President of China. I don't see why this can't happen.

Well, I believe people should enjoy their freedom. I don't oppose the free of Tibet. Not only Tibet should be free, but also the entire nation. It is Tibetan's freedom to decide whether it would be stay with the other part of "Zhongguo" as one single nation entity, or otherwise. The media from the West always says how many Tibetan people were killed by the "Chinese", but do you know far more Han Chinese people were killed by the "Chinese" about the same time? It is not particular to the Tibetans. In my opinion, Tibetan people should join other ethnic groups in China, struggle against our same enemy. This is the real "Too bad".

yaogya2000:
Tnx for your info and perspective. Most interesting, and it certainly adds to the debate. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to reply.

I suspect that most of the maps you see in No Cal and elsewhere are now made in China and exported, and of course they are going to depict Tibet that way. I think if you can find materials produced elsewhere, you might find an alternative presentation.

Westwood:
I just ordered the book.

yaogya2000:

I understand what you're trying to say, however, I have a burning question. My readings indicate that the Potala is "Lhasa's cardinal landmark". That for centuries it was the seat of the Buddhists monks, the heart of their religion and of the country.. Its 1,000 rooms were a beehive of prayer and activity. But I read that now the Potala is an empty shell. That it "...lies dormant like a huge museum...". No monks are allowed to pray there as before. What happened?

It´s all in a name : neither Tibet or Xizang is the word used by Tibetans , but at least Tibet comes without the colonial tinge of the "Western Treasurehouse". The book suggested in # 2 is very good on this background , and in giving an idea on just how big the Tibetan cultural sphere actually is : if the present TAR would become independent today , then the majority of Tibetans would be on the outside. One striking example of this is that many of the Dalai Lamas, including the present , come from Amdo.

"You have to read both side. Western materials on Tibet is too much of propaganda and hate speech."

A lot of pro-Tibet writing is simplistic and presents a disneyfied view on Tibetan history , like the myths of a warfree state , true. Official and pro-Chinese history writing is often even worse. Very good book on the subject : History as Propaganda , which deals with the mythology from both sides.

I´m reminded of this , when I read #4 , despite the common ground in saying that freedom is what everyone needs in present PRC.

"Since the fall of Qing in 1912, many people consider Tibet still part of the new nation, called Republic of China. You can find a map of Republic of China published in 1910s or 1920s."

The post-imperial Chinese state considered Mongolia and Tibet part of China , and produced maps saying the same. Mapmaking was a traditional tool of extending claims of territory , the first Chinese maps making these claims of Tibet were made by Jesuit monks in China in the late 16th century , who used Mongols as cartographic spies - similar to the later British use of the pundits in Himalaya , coming from a similar lack of access. Mongols and Tibetans probably didn´t see themselves as part of China after the Mongolian declaration of independence in 1911, the expulsion of the Chinese envoy (Amban) in Lhasa and his troops to Calcutta (!) in 1912, and the Tibetan-Mongolian treaty of 1913 : "“Whereas Mongolia and Tibet having freed themselves from the Manchu dynasty and separated themselves from China, have become independent states.."

"Tibetan people have been, together with Mongolian, Manchuian and Han Chinese people, live in a same dynasty called the Great Qing for hundreds of years."

Tibetans in general in the central U Tsang province were nearly unaware of China : in Lhasa you had a very small group of Chinese traders (probably not much bigger than the Nepali trading community ) , and the Amban and his guards , living where Drapchi prison is situated today. They were reliant on interpreters or had to learn Tibetan : even in the late sixties , many years after the invasion , less than five percent understood Chinese.( Radio Lhasa broadcasted in English and Chinese as well from 1948 , this would have been directed at foreign listeners.) Chinese currency ( instead of the Tibetan srang ) did not come in to use until after ´59 , after the Dalai Lamas escape to India. Chinese military presence was a complete fiction : the 1904 British invasion was announced around six months in advance , and there was not a single Chinese officer present to meet the foreign army , or to negiotate the peace treaty afterwards, or in the border treaty with British India in 1914 ( the McMahon line ). This was a similar pattern to the war with Ladakh in the 17th century , and the later conflicts with Bhutan.

"Tibetan people are the first class citizens of "Zhongguo"

Consider then the curious case of Woeser : a Tibetan dissident , married to an equally well known Han dissident , who can´t leave the country to receive the Freedom of Expression Prize , which then is picked up by her husband.

Hi Yaohua

If Han people and Tibetan people are equal Chinese Citizens, can you answer the following questions:

1. I have a Tibetan friend in Sichuan and a Chinese friend. When I visit my Tibetan friend she is not allowed to have foreigners stay at her house. When they do, she is interrogated by the police. When I visit my CHinese friend, I an able to stay at his house he has no problems with the police.

2. How long does it take the average Chinese person to get a passport? It often takes a Tibetan 1+ years if at all.

3. Why does it seem that most of the shops in the Tibetan regions of China are owned by Han chinese and not Tibetans? Do Han Chinese have preferential treatment to getting small business loans?

4. Why is Ngaba closed to foreigners, what is happening there now? Does this happen in areas primary populated by Han Chinese?

5. Why are the educational standard in Tibetan regions so much worse than in other parts of China? Do Tibetans have equal access to affordable education?

6. What would happen to you if you tried to have a public debate on autonomy in the Tibetan Autonomous Region, especially if your views differed from the governments view? What would happen to a Tibetan?

7. If you where put on trial, would the government allow a lawyer from hong kong to represent you? There are a number if high profile legal cases of Tibetans on trial, who are offered free legal representation by Hong Kong Lawyers, but they are always denied by the government.

Sincerely

Don