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60
In response to #59

So predictable.... Now this tragedy will be used for another round of lobbying for a ban on independent trekking, even though many, if not most, of the victims were trekking with guides.

From the Guardian text:
"Nepal blames ‘cheap tourists’ for falling victim to snowstorm in Himalayas
Officials in Nepal have blamed the high death toll from the disaster in the Himalayas this week on budget tourists who did not hire guides to cross a high mountain pass to save money. ...
In comments likely to anger many, Mohan Krishna Sapkota, spokesman of Tourism Ministry, said those who suffered most were “cheaper tourists” who did not want to hire individual guides.

“If they were with the guide then they would have had a much better idea about the weather,” Sapkota said.
...
The government will also move to restrict individuals trekking “on their own”"

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61
In response to #59

The Nepali responses in the Guardian article is so full of CYA and victim-blaming BS that I'm having a hard time not throwing my mouse at my monitor... What a bunch of morons. I'm tempted to cancel my upcoming trip purely out of spite - although obviously they wouldn't care what one tourist would do, but I personally have a hard time with the idea that my money will end up in the hands of these idiots. Plus, I'm not so interested in finding out first hand what they mean in the short term about "restrict individuals trekking on their own".

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62

Well, we are seeing reports from an apparently experienced hill walker and from one of the Israelis that the victims were not properly equipped. It also seems that some victims left the small tea house at the top of the pass and tried to descend. If this is confirmed then it is fair to say that they contributed to their problems. They could be said to be "cheap" in the sense that they did not equip themselves properly for bad weather.

On the other hand, I believe that at least some of them were with guides. There are also reports of porters in the area. Of course a porter would not be expected to have a guide's skills, of either survival or language, but I have seen many "guides" who had little skill themselves. Either way it is difficult to deal with a situation like this if you do not have the right gear. Does anyone know how often a walking guide inspects a client's gear before they set out?

I have crossed the Thorung La six times in various weathers, although certainly not in a storm as bad as this one. On every occasion I have seen walkers who were obviously ill-equipped for any sort of bad weather. Sometimes that might have been as high as 50% of those I saw. The AC has long been a goal for people of little mountain experience, slim budgets, and poor gear. I once had to stop and give a very cold guy in a thin fleece and no wind proof my down jacket and some chocolate before walking with him down the west side. His "friends" had left him behind. When we caught up with them, they seemed to have no sense of having done anything wrong. On another occasion I came across a group with a woman who was having altitude problems. Their guide and some group members were almost literally pulling her along in their efforts to stick to their schedule. My sirdar and I were on an acclimatisation walk and managed to persuade the group to descend. Such people will always be at risk on a straightforward walk like the AC, guide or no guide.

On the subject of weather. I would be most surprised if at least some of the lodge people were not aware of the forecast. The problem is often one of communication with their trekkers. They assume that the trekkers know or they have no common language. The trekkers do not think to ask. One advantage of a proper guide is that they can find out such things when a trekker might not. I am skeptical about elaborate warning systems. In Western countries which have such systems of coms, signs, and closures there are always people who ignore them. Nepal is a poor and corrupt country and anything too elaborate is unlikely, IMO, to work well. A simple education program for lodge keepers of the need to put up weather forecasts for trekkers would be more practical. A sheet of Nepali to English forecast translations for different conditions would help overcome the language problem.

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63
In response to #62

A simple education program for lodge keepers of the need to put up weather forecasts for trekkers would be more practical.

good idea. a small tax on independent trekkers could pay for that, some basic 'beware' info and shelters, as well as (depending on corruption) being a useful contribution to Nepal's economy.

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64
In response to #63

Why new tax? Funds already being charged for TIMS should be spent on that instead of disappearing in Kathmandu's bureaucracy.

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65
In response to #64

yes fair point there , i was getting carried away ... and from what they are saying -

“We will strictly record their names and ask them to take all the information about the weather, area and adopt safety measures,”

it looks like there will be a 'safety tax' coming anyway. but maybe a $10 extra per trek price wouldn't break too many budgets and could be used for other things as well as a basic mountain safety service.

true, tax is likely lost on bureaucracy but tourists directly paying trekking companies instead which is what the nepali govt are pushing for on the other hand, doesn't seem to get to the right people either.

it looks like a contributory part of this tragedy, as earlier this year in everest is the working conditions of guides and porters, if those could be improved trekking would be safer for all. Myself I'm not sure if either tax or private enterprise is best suited to that purpose.

Edited by redsalmon
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66
In response to #62

Well, we are seeing reports from an apparently experienced hill walker and from one of the Israelis that the victims were not properly equipped. It also seems that some victims left the small tea house at the top of the pass and tried to descend. If this is confirmed then it is fair to say that they contributed to their problems. They could be said to be "cheap" in the sense that they did not equip themselves properly for bad weather.

On the other hand, I believe that at least some of them were with guides. There are also reports of porters in the area.

Now you're telling us there, to paraphrase, "the cheap trekkers without guides/porters were ill equipped". You base this in part on the 'Hill walker'; this would be the Brit, Sgt Sheridan, quoted in the Daily Mail.

Here's what he actually said:

Sgt Sheridan added: 'My view is that this incident could have been prevented. I knew the weather forecast before I set off.
'Having spoken to my guide, who wasn't there but obviously has been there, they say that the weight that the porters carry is so great that they leave their own personal safety equipment behind to lighten their load. That to me is an absolute disgusting folly.
'All they are doing is leading people to a certain death, and themselves.
'If someone had taken the responsibility just to stop people going up there, I'm sure the fatalities would have been a lot less. They were herded up that mountain to their death, and something needs to be done to address those facts.'

Prior to that he described:

'I looked around and I saw a Nepalese boy and his face was frozen. There was sheer glass ice hanging on his cheek. I went across to him and I said "Your face is frozen" and he said "I know" and he began to cry and we both began to cry

He tells us the guides were ill equipped, and ill trained. Basically the polar opposite of your reading.

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67
In response to #59

TAAN has released a more detailed list of names and passport numbers for those rescued from the Thorung La on Friday here.

The search effort has now moved to the Sangda La, which links Upper Dolpa/Dolpo and Mustang.

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68
In response to #67

Rescue attempts held back by lack of helicopters and government support, according to Ekantipur - here.

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69

An accurate warning system will be next to impossible. This was a catastrophic event which happened the first time in a decade or two. The rest of the time it will be somewhere in between good and bad, just like there are many reports of people who had some snow on AC and ABC but it was still doable. As long as it seems doable guides and travellers alike will push forward because the next group is already waiting for the guide, flights are booked, visas expire. Even with this tragedy, I read that the cyclone was actually forecast to hit further west and made a last minute turn towards Annapurna. The focus here seems to be on Annapurna circuit which would be easy to upgrade but people use more and more side treks and many deaths have occurred away from the main path, so measures should include all areas. In my eyes the three conclusions to draw from this are 1.) improve communication networks, mobile network coverage in all trekking areas 2.) build emergency shelters with first aid supplies, or new staffed government lodges with oxygen and better supplies that otherwise disappear 3.) a criminal investigation to find out if and why people were forced or pushed to leave the safety of teahouses near Thorong La as some reports indicate. Even the best system is utterly useless if you are kicked out of a safe haven.

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