Visa Waiver

So, the fact that if you enter the US on the VWP and then go to Canada for months and months, the US pretends that you never left--well, that fact is just an unfortunate consequence of the way the rules had to be set up.

Everything you say Mr P up to this paragraph is fine, but then it goes quite pear-shaped.. If you spent 89 days in the US (and had a great time), but then go to Canada for 3, 6, 12 months - why should the US consider that a breach of the 90-day VWP rules?

This is not (prima facie) an attempt to increase the time they spend in the US, it is simply a serial sequence (time in the US then time in Canada, with no desire to return to Seppostan). Surely the system can deal with such cases easily enough - the US seems very paranoid as a nation, I must add, a propos the VWP.

When someone asks "Why should . . .," what follows may be a logical argument but not necessarily a fact that the OP can go by. OP, you have to accept the risks involved. Ian can't, of course. You could just get a visa and then have fewe worries.

Yeah well ... I guess it's pretty easy to shoot the messenger.

And it still seems to me that (a) it's okay for the US to include time in Canada, Mexico, and adjacent islands within the VWP time limits, and (b) it's okay to not allow people returning to the US to maintain their VWP good status if they have only been out to other bits of North America, but (c) it's not okay - in a fair and reasonable world - to include time in Canada etc as VWP over-stay time in the US, when there is no intent or any attempt to return to the US.

Now that is totally outrageous. Talk about drowning in red tape!

ian, your statement is a bit contradictory.
If you are ok with a), you must be ok with c), since c) is a subset of a).
To clarify:
Those who go to xCanada or xMexico but don't come back are still there, and say you are ok with including the time in xCanada and xMexico in the VWP calculations.

It's not contradictory at all ... i think the US should only include non-USA North America in the VWP calcs if (and only if) the punter returns to the US. If not, it is absolutely no business of the US where they go after departing the US - even if on the VWP. Leaving is leaving, if they have no intent of returning under that Visa Waiver! But I concede I could be missing something.

ian, what you may be thinking+ is not contradictory, but what you +wrote in #22 is.
That's all I'm saying.

Yeah well bzook ...you're probably right ... after a few Chardonnays, the disconnect between what I think and what I write can be of Grand Canyon proportions! I still think the VWP rules are odd though.

I do apologise for being too dense or labouring the point. To be clear, if I'm in Mexico for 42 days, go to the US for 8 days and then go to Canada for 40 days, total of 90 days, then my US Visa has expired, is that correct?

The clock starts as soon as you set foot in the US--but not before. If you spend 42 days in Mexico before you ever get to the US --not even for a short airport transit--it does not matter.
> then my US Visa has expired

We are not talking about a visa. This is the Visa Waiver Program, which allows you to stay for 90 days in the US without having to get a visa.

To be clear, if I'm in Mexico for 42 days, go to the US for 8 days and then go to Canada for 40 days, total of 90 days, then my US Visa has expired, is that correct?

As nutrax says, your time under the Visa Waiver Program (which isn't a visa as such) starts when you first enter US territory, including any transits ... so if you're arriving into Mexico without touching down at any US port (which might require some creative flying options), then your waiver conditions will not be breached for up to 82 days stay in Canada after your short USA visit (since 8+82 = 90).

I trust that is clearer.