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I considered throwing in Winslow where standing on the corner is a big thing but just couldn't.......

Go ahead, throw it in! On balance Winslow is a total dump, but the La Posada Hotel alone has enough historical charm for three small towns. In fact, if OP decides to go north through Show Low I'd insist that they plan their day around getting lunch at the Turquoise Room, and if that's too packed, just walk around the hotel and grounds a bit and then grab lunch down the street at Las Marias (which is yummy and super cheap).

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Okay, here's to hoping you folks are still interested in my little journey. It's coming up fast so I am about to book hotels.

If I understood all this correctly, this is my route.

Looks like Payson/Strawberry have some backtracking, so I opted the Show Low route. If this is a poor choice for some reason, please let me know.

As an alt to Show Low, a friend suggested the Wigwam Motel in Holbrook. -- any input here? Although you want me to eat lunch in Show Low, it seems impossible to me as the 3-4 hike in Cibecue happens before we get to Show Low.

Any further advice on where to stay or where to eat etc. is appreciated. I completely suck at navigation, so hopefully it's easy enough to find these hikes and landmarks etc.

Mike

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That google maps route is not correct. There is no need to backtrack from Fish Creek Canyon - just continue to on Hwy 88 to Roosevelt Lake. At Roosevelt you can turn right to Globe and Salt River Canyon, or left to Payson.

Looks like Payson/Strawberry have some backtracking, so I opted the Show Low route.

I don't see how that is - what backtracking are you talking about? From Strawberry just head north to Flagstaff and Grand Canyon, through Clints Well and Happy Jack. Its actually more direct than the route through Show Low, and with the same backtracked sections (from GC back to Sedona).

As an alt to Show Low, a friend suggested the Wigwam Motel in Holbrook. -- any input here? Although you want me to eat lunch in Show Low, it seems impossible to me as the 3-4 hike in Cibecue happens before we get to Show Low.

Holbrook and Show Low are less than an hour apart - it doesn't matter where you stay (or where you eat lunch or dinner, although Show Low has better restaurants. BTW, I was thinking about dinner). You can see the Wigwam on the internet, and it pretty much is what it is - either that interests you or it doesn't. heck, after Holbrook its only another 40 minutes of dull interstate driving to Winslow, where you could stay at the La Posada, which is awesome.

Basically, if you go the Payson-Strawberry route, there is less driving overall, and your main attractions or activities will be Tonto Natural Bridge State Park, and the hike to Fossil Springs, both of which are superb. The Show Low route has Salt River Canyon and the Cibecue Falls hike, both of which are also superb. The next leg of the drive to Flagstaff and Grand Canyon is prettier from Strawberry (quite lovely actually).

As for where to stay, we've covered that ground pretty well...unless there is some really special property you want to enjoy like the La Posada or some cozy B&B in Pine or Globe, I'd base it more on what you want to be doing that day - none of the towns are nice or interesting enough themselves to plan an itinerary around.

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I thought I was following along, but I'm playing catch-up a little.

Just figured out the 'Apache Trail' is the name of a road - highway 88, which you recommended as a great drive. Now I see why we do not go back to 60, even though this is a faster drive.

Based on that, and the inclusion of Fossil Springs as an option, I now see two route options which are linked below. Are these accurate?

via payson - http://goo.gl/b6BdKe (staying in Pine or Strawberry shaves a little of the driving time off)
Nicer and longer drive. On the map, I've skipped Globe and opted for 2 nights in Payson//Pine/Strawberry - saves some driving, and less moving around.

via Show Low (or elsewhere on same route) - http://goo.gl/fmoVJ1
To our eye, Cibecue looks like the preferable option compared to Fossil Springs, although going in a group with a guide does not appeal. Shorter and less pleasant drive.

•Iis Cibecue that much more enjoyable/lovely than Fossil Springs? It reminds us of an awesome hike we did in Jordan - Wadi Mujib. http://goo.gl/s4jpje
•It seems like Cibecue requires a permit from wmatoutdoors.com and/or an Apache guide. Is this correct? Not super keen to hire a guide if we don't need to.
•Is the Payson route a dramatically nicer drive than via Show Low?

Thanks,

MT

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Your Payson route is a little wonky and includes getting to Fossil Creek by a very long dirt road. Here is a better option, and includes a hike to the springs that starts very near Strawberry, along with a better route to Flagstaff.

I like both Fossil Creek and Cibicue. Fossil is probably the more unique phenomenon, and has plenty of waterfalls and what not down stream from the springs. If you go that way, hiking in to the Springs from Strawberry, at least be sure to hike as far as the old dam site, where there are spectacular falls and swimming holes. But Cibecue is great too, and the Salt River Canyon is spectacular. Toss up.

As for the drive, the drive to Flagstaff via Payson is shorter, and is reasonably scenic the whole way. The drive via Show Low is longer - the first half is really great especially through the canyon, but the second half after Show Low is pretty dull high desert flatlands and cattle country.

You don't need a guide to hike to the first waterfall in Cibicue, you only need to purchase a White Mountain Apache Special Use Permit online ($15). back in the day before all these rules, I hiked above the first falls and its uh-mazing, but now you need a guide to proceed past the first falls. No permits or other red tape at Fossil Creek.

Sorry I can't decide for you. both ways are really fine. Enjoy your trip!

Edited by flagstuff, Edited to fix the map link
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I fixed the map route, above, because Google maps has its own interpretaion of some of the specific destinations, like Fossil Creek and Fish Creek, resulting in some really odd detours.

BTW, I didn't mess with it, but the drive to Grand Canyon from Flagstaff is prettier via hwy 180. If you're driving at night, sure take the interstate through Williams - its a little faster and there are fewer issues with wildlife in the road. But during the day, the 180 route is more pleasant.

Edited by flagstuff
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Thank you! This now makes so much more sense.

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I think Flagstuff knew this, but it wasn't clear to me.

According the the forest service site, road FR 708 is closed throughout 2015. That means that the road is inaccessible from Strawberry, and you must add an 8 mile hike to your day - not insignificant.

(just an FYI for anyone who searches this crazy thread)

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That means that the road is inaccessible from Strawberry,

Not quite so, but I do see why it is confusing. If you go to the actual order and closure map it says this:

National Forest System Road 708, known as the “Fossil Creek Road” [is closed starting] 1/2 mile west of the entrance to the Upper Fossil Springs Trailhead and extending west and down canyon to a point immediately east of the Waterfall Trailhead (Old Flume Trail Trailhead)

What this means is that you can drive to the Upper Fossil Springs Trailhead from Strawberry, or you can access the Waterfall Trailhead via the longer road from near Camp Verde, but you can't drive Road 708 between the two access points. I did know about this closure, but I was recommending the hike into Upper Fossil Springs from Strawberry, which isn't affected by the closure.

and you must add an 8 mile hike to your day - not insignificant

This is the hike I was recommending - its a great hike and you guys have the time and seemed up for it. No? To access the lower end of the area you have to add a decent length detour including 27 miles on a winding, washboarded dirt road. Also not insignificant. Plus, because you don't have to hike any significant distance to the creek from the lower trailhead it is often completely mobbed on weekends. The longer hike from near Strawberry has big canyon views to start, and goes right to the artesian spring source of the creek, which is super cool. A short distance downstream is the old diversion dam, and a series of waterfalls and deep pools below that.

Edited by flagstuff
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Here's a slightly modified idea. Only real change is for Monday.

Sunday - apache trail, salt canyon etc. - sleep Strawberry Hill Cabins
Monday - Plan for Petrified forest and La Posada. (Backup - stay in Strawberry and hike Fossil Springs.) Do not book accommodation this night.
Tues - GCNP (Kachina)
Wed - GCNP (El Tovar)
Thu - GCNP - Sedona
Fri - Sedona, ballooning + hiking etc.
Sat - TBC. Sedona or maybe an adventure elsewhere. Depart PHX

Thanks all, particularly Flagstuff. I'll post a trip report when we get back.

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