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Connor: sending you a PM as I am very interested in your input.

31

Jorge:

Bob # 33: "..A tour is a competitive commercial enterprise run by the tour operator. They must deliver where tourists want to go, what they want to see, and who they want to meet, not what the Cuban government wants.

Jorge: if anyone is marketing a tour in the US or any other country, those are the realities. Of course, it may be different if you are marketing a tour in Cuba to Cubans. But it is a competitive commercial environment. Deliver what customers want and you get a good reputation and repeat business. Do not deliver and your potential customers go to your competition.

The Cuban government has no control of a tour. I have yet to find any requirements that a tour operator must involve the Cuban government in any way.

I really want to find out if my knowledge here is incorrect. Who in the Cuban government must I tell that I am receiving a fee and obtain permission to enter the country if I have a group that pays me to take them to Cuba,? Is there any agency that must approve our itinerary? I know there is not such if we are just a group traveling together. How does the Cuban government differentiate between a group of people traveling together and a "tour"? If my family, totaling 16 of us, go to Cuba are we classified as a "tour"?

Please point me to some official rules and regulations that define all this. I hear personal opinion, much conflicting. But no one can tell me if there are real rules and regulations.

32

Bob 35:
Is there any agency that must approve our itinerary? I know there is not such if we are just a group traveling together. How does the Cuban government differentiate between a group of people traveling together and a "tour"? If my family, totaling 16 of us, go to Cuba are we classified as a "tour"?

Please point me to some official rules and regulations that define all this. I hear personal opinion, much conflicting. But no one can tell me if there are real rules and regulations.

Dear Bob:
I hope you and I are clear that we are talking about two different “groups”: those coming through an organized tour under the umbrella of an OFAC licensed institution; and independent US travelers.

Unfortunately I can’t help you on explaining things in here. Revealing governmental internal regulations in a public Forum could be on the edge of breaking the legality over here. I have plans to retire in a nice tobacco farm in Viñales not in a condominium in Miami….lol..

But yes FYI there are rigid strict regulations defining and clearly establishing how things work in here for the US travelers coming organized through an OFAC license group; and yes, there is more than one agency (Ministry of Tourism and not) that will –or not- approve an itinerary.

If you create a group of US travelers coming without a license but illegally as independent one although some of the regulations will not be applied to you, there will be a number of others that couldl impact your trip.
For example: if you want me to book your family of 16 –just an example- in private homes, no problem. But if you ask me a private transfer for 16 pax in a Minibus to Varadero and two nights at a resort over there; then we shall be talking about a different thing.

Trust me, it is more complicated than normal business procedures out there and it takes years of inside participation and training to be able to understand first and work with later or to move around these regulations.

I do love how Uncle Sam is always one step behind our folks in here. They preach people-to-people as a “destructing” policy and we get the money and introduce our own propaganda. Beautiful!

33

Jorge: I am wondering how the Cuban government knows which Americans have an OFAC license and those who do not. I have always traveled with a OFAC license but have never seen anything that would lead me to believe the Cuban government knows that. They have never asked me. The only way the Cuban government would know which Americans have and which do not have an OFAC license would be if the US government shared that data with them. I cannot see that happening.

I am finding it incredulous that the Cuban government has secret rules and regulations regarding tourism that cannot be publicly disclosed. No tour operator has ever given me indication that such secret laws exist. I know the situation in Cuba is different but.................

addendum: I do love how Uncle Sam is always one step behind our folks in here. They preach people-to-people as a “destructing” policy and we get the money and introduce our own propaganda. Beautiful!

If the objective of the Cuban government is to introduce propaganda to "people to people" tours, they are failing miserably from the one such tour I went on in 2009. Maybe we just all missed it since it was in Spanish which no one understood.

Edited by: bobmichaels

34

Re: tours. I guess first we have to differentiate between "solidarity" tours and regular tours. I was looking at the program for the 2013 Che Guevara work brigade and every day or every second day there was a "meet with such-and-such a group." Those, obviously are pre-planned and arranged. When I was in Baracoa several years ago, there was a Gap tour group there and from what I remember they told me about their trip, it was not much different from what a regular tourist may have done.

Since I am not a USian, I am not really familiar with the People-to-People tours. BobMichaels, did you meet with any "groups" of people - or was it very much a casual experience. I simply can't get over the idea that if Cuba could have a captive audience to explain the government/society/whatever, why they wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity.

35

The latter part of this thread goes into area of "Cuban commerce" that are possibly might be better served on a seaprate thread.

My personal experience is that Jorge is pointing out that operating as a US tour operator once within Cuba can be a very challenging exercise.

The Cuban fact is this - yes, Cuba has control/influence on tour group expenses/revenue inside Cuba. Jorge's mini-bus example is spot-on. Group hotel booking, transport, group meals, group entertainment, etc all fall within governmental parameters

The US fact is that as a licensed OFAC tour operator means you are legally committed in the US to diligently follow OFAC guidelines within Cuba, which in turn means you need to operate within the parameters of a commercial tour group operating within Cuba.

You want to do things informally - have at it - Jorge was giving you insight on how legitimate OFAC tour operators are under guidlines both from US side and Cuban side on how to operate/spend money in Cuba.

Rage against the machine - feel free to particular your passion with Cuba - but on the "legitimate side" it is what it is. Cube es Cuba.

Part of my work in Cuba is as liason (on-the-ground consultant/business conceriege) for OFAC approved tours for corporate businessmen Cuba considered as VIP's - many who who use OFAC approved private jet or chartered yacht transport to Cuba - including separate groups from investment banking, real estate, bio-technology (that one got a bit dicey), communications, and the most fun Hollywood studio VIP's/celebrities - ranging from groups of 35-40 to a solo "personalities".

Have a great time hashing this about !

36

Wooglet , have a look that this detailed trip report by a fellow American Mark Silva from October 2012. I think this is more in line with what your are searching for, legal travel to Cuba. On the right side start with Day 1 welcome to Havana and move to Day 7, enjoy courtesy of Mark Silva.

http://www.travelertourist.com/2012/10/22/13/

37

BobMichaels, did you meet with any "groups" of people - or was it very much a casual experience. I simply can't get over the idea that if Cuba could have a captive audience to explain the government/society/whatever, why they wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity.

We met with some school children at a school we chose to stop at. We met with the artist Jose Fuster (see note). The others we met were just people that we just happened to come along.

We were in a Transtur bus and had one of their guides but we chose our itinerary, including changing it in route.
If the Cuban government had anything to do with our trip, it certainly was transparent to us. And, I had some detailed conversations with our trip leader.

note: I chose not to meet with Jose Fuster but to spend my time walking around his neighborhood talking with those who lived there. That was not a problem. That and a free day drove my decision to return solo a few months later.

38

Fabbrisd1: OFAC is no question. I have a copy of all the rules and have spoken with them. I travel now under an OFAC license.

The Cuban end is where I only get general statements but no details. Can you point me to the rules?

I should add that a Transtur manager told me there were no specific requirements for what I was discussing. But she was not high enough up the chain of command that I would rely on her verbal statements.

39

Kindof a chuckle from your comment "point me to the rules" - Aduana is about the only aspect of tourist travel to Cuba that is that well documented.

From the US side - frsnkly traveling to Cuba under license is a far cry from operating as a OFAC approved tour operator.

From the Cuba side - operating as a OFAC approved tour operator in Cuba is all about "revenue sharing", and how much and what slice goes to the Fidelista agencies (both formally and "informally") to supply the services (rooms, food, transportation) for your tours.

You need someone in Cuba who can your game/contacts to the next level in that area - if and only if you are prepared to deliver OFAC approved revenue from the US side.

There is no inside deal/loophole on one side that gets you preferential treatment on the other side - procedural/process on the US side, and delivered revenue stream on the Cuban side.

40

Fabbrisd1: Do not sweat the US / OFAC side. I know where to get questions answered there.

From the Cuban side: Are you saying that Cuba knows a group's status with OFAC?

What differentiates a "tour" from a group of people traveling together with the financial arrangements confidential to the members of the group? Note: I am not talking about renting a bus or any other activity involving any branch of the Cuban government.

What specific Cuban government agencies need to be involved? Or is this a secret like the rules?

I hate to sound obstinate but I am just not getting any logical responses.