1

Like.

Are they happy for people to just turn up in Dong Van and get a permit or do they insist that people need to pay for a guide?

William (< 70 sleeps from Dong Van)

2

The story of "no guide, no permit" is an old Ha Giang story, long gone, at a time when a more or less official "travel agency" was installed over the permit office. It is years now that the permit is given without any guide "attached"

3

Which is a good help to make the north eastern trip the way you want because of not having to get a permit from the district.

4

No, it is still a district permit (the entire region north of Ha Giang is a military zone - same north of Cao Bang, where you need a permit to go to the Ban Gioc Waterfalls) ; the new decision is just a matter of practicality ; before, the permit was bought at the Immigration Office, which was impractical and illogical, since that permit had nothing to do with checking the visa of the numerous Chinese tourists entering Vietnam through Ha Giang ; in fact, I would not be surprised that the decision was taken because there are more and more Chinese tourists and the Immigration Office could not cope any longer with the visas + the permits

5

Larsay, thank you for your fantastic informative posts with regard to this area. I have learnt more from your posts than anywhere else on the net.

Question. Coming from the east on motorbikes.. and say starting at the QL4 and QL34 intersection at NA Phong. How long would it take to ride to Ha Giang via Dong Van? It is hard to judge distances in Vietnam in my experience (have ridden from Saigon to Hanoi via Phu Quoc! )

Leaving Hanoi, how far do you think we can get toward NA Phong in a full days riding? Or at least in the general direction of Dong Van? We are experienced riders on 250's

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks and regards hit

6

Question. Coming from the east on motorbikes.. and say starting at the QL4 and QL34 intersection at NA Phong. How long would it take to ride to Ha Giang via Dong Van? It is hard to judge distances in Vietnam in my experience (have ridden from Saigon to Hanoi via Phu Quoc! )

Leaving Hanoi, how far do you think we can get toward NA Phong in a full days riding? Or at least in the general direction of Dong Van? We are experienced riders on 250's

I would love to answer your questions BUT I do not see any "intersection between Rte 4 and Route 34", nor a village called Na Phong, except a tiny one off 34 before arriving in Bao Lac. 34 starts in Ha Giang and goes East through Bac Mé, Bao lac, Nguyen Binh, and ends in Cao Bang.

As far as driving time is concerned, it is very easy to calculate : count 30-35 km/h average, you don't drive in those mountains at night, and you have to plan according to the possibilities of sleeping ; you don't sleep anywhere in Vietnam ! For example, if you go from Cao Bang to Ha Giang, the only places where you have a hotel is in Nguyen Binh (but too close to Cao Bang) and Bao Lac, and the road is in very poor condition, I would say 5-6 hours drive for 122 km of non-stop passes and turns.

From Hanoi, the best itinerary is
J1 Hanoi-Tay Nguyen-Babe Lake
J2 Babe-Bao Lac through a small mountain road joining the main one (Route 34) near Tinh Tuc
J3 Bao lac-Meo Vac (where tyou go to the police to buy the mandatory permit)-Dong Van
J4 Dong Van-Ha Giang

I added Dong Van because that region is the most stunning of North Vietnam.

Edited by: larsay

Edited by: larsay

7

Damn! I just spent 30 minutes studing maps and referencing and lost all my typing here!!

Quick review of that was..

So no hotels in Meo Vac or Dong Van ?

Cao Bang to Bao Lac is approx 6 hrs ?

Your itinary sleeps at Babe Lakes 1st night... 2nd nite Bao Lac... 3rd nite Dong Van ? u say there are no hotels in Dong Van ?

Is it THAI Nguyen or TAY Nguyen ?

My first reply was much more polite - sorry !! :)

Our "Holy Grail" is Dong Van. I'd like to get over to Sapa as well but i dont think we will have time. Its going to have to be one or the other i feel. We only have 5 nites/6 days :(

8

There are at least TWO hotels in Dong Van, Stayed there. Going back in October.

William.

9

So no hotels in Meo Vac or Dong Van ?
I did not write that there are no hotels in Meo Vac or Dong Van, but between Nguyen Binh and Bao Lac. There are plenty of hotels in Meo Vac and 4 (not two only) in Dong Van

Cao Bang to Bao Lac is approx 6 hrs ?
Yes, the road is magnificent, but in bad shape. Good hotel in Bao Lac, the THUY DUONG

Is it THAI Nguyen or TAY Nguyen ?
Thai Nguyen

10

Is it THAI Nguyen or TAY Nguyen?

It is Thai Nguyen. Tay Nguyen is aka the Central Highlands to the west of Da Nang.

larsay, thanks for the great posts from Hanoi over the years, in particular about

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1984221

QUOTE

To understand Dien Bien Phu, one must know what happened in Hat Lot, better known during the French as Na San, a bowl of 5km by 2 surrounded by mountains. In 1952, General Salan, then Commander-in-Chief of the French Army in replacement of de Lattre, who is dying in Paris, learns that the Vietminh divisions are marching towards North Laos to join the communist Pathet Lao and cut Tonkin in two. Knowing the region upside down, which he crisscrossed on a horse when he was a young lieutenant to make land surveys, Salan decides to install a fortified camp in the bowl of Na San, being sure that Giap would not resist to the idea of redoing his Cao Bang maneuver, meaning the destruction of the garrison. For 2 months, a noria of DC4 –one every 10 minutes- brings over 3000 tonnes of equipment and nearly 15 000 men, the biggest airlift since the Korean War. As he expected, on November 30, 1952, Giap attacks with his best divisions, and withdraws on December 3...less over 500 killed. The reason of the French success: the airport which allowed the French to bring food and ammunitions and take away the wounded, Giap not being able to forbid the traffic for lack of heavy artillery.

UNQUOTE

However, in the same old post of yours is this detail about Pac Bo

QUOTE

Ho Chi Minh’s cave in Pac Bo (56 km from Cao Bang).

For History buffs! Ho Chi Minh’s hide out during World War II. Good road, but less spectacular than the Ban Gioc one. It ends in Pac Bó. On the left, a small museum with some Ho Chi Minh’s memorabilia (sandals, binoculars, photos, etc.). The parking –and small food stalls- stretches alongside a river called “Lenin River” by Uncle Ho, the peak over it being « Karl Marx Peak”. On the left of the parking, a concrete trail leads to HCM’s hut; attention: it is in China (very practical when the French were coming too close!); a sign points the border; you can go to the hut but better make sure no local is around, one never knows! On the way back, a few steps on the right leads to the entrance of the grotto –this one in Vietnam- a mere crack in the cliff. No wonder the French never located it. It is there that, in 1946, HCM convened a meeting of the Vietminh representatives and declared the independence of Vietnam.

UNQUOTE

Perhaps you simply mistyped the year 1946? It should read 1941.

1945 September 2. In Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh declares independence from France.
1945 August. Ninth Plenum of the ICP at Tan Trao just outside Hanoi.
1941 May. Eighth Plenum of the ICP at Pac Bo. The place remains historic because it was at this moment that Ho Chi Minh set foot on Vietnamese soil for the first time in some 30 years. He created the Viet Minh at this plenum, in May of 1941.

Merci vos superbes posts de la part d'un autre ancien etudiant d'histoire! :-)

11

You are right ; thank you for the correction, it is indeed 1941

12

#1 larsay, did you ever wonder about when it was that the French formalized their loss of the Chinese side of the Hanoi / Kunming rail line? I looked it up. It happened with the signature of the Treaty of Chungking on 28 February 1946 between the returning French and the KMT. This was four years before the Communist Party of China came to power on that border. The diplomatic corps of the KMT (Republic of China) on Taiwan maintains of copy of that treaty in their online museum on

http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh100/diplomatic/page_en03.html

or read the formal translations of that treaty on the United Nations page on

http://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/UNTS/Volume%2014/v14.pdf

Thanks again for your great travel reports. :-)

13

I knew that it was 1946, but I did not know the exact date so, thank you for the info.

Concerning the improvement of the railway, it seems that iti s postponed ad vitam aeternam

PS I disagree with your old comment that it is "not the place to talk about such things" ; the history of the places you visit is ALWAYS interesting and often explains what you see !!!

A little tease : who started training the Vietminh in 1946 ????I am sure you know the answer !

14

who started training the Vietminh in 1946?

We can thank Professor Christopher Goscha

http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r26645/recherche_publications.php

for updating Anglophones about the deserters from the Japanese Imperial Army in the ranks of the Viet Minh.

More links are on

http://www.warbirdforum.com/japviet.htm

Best regards,