Advice on badly behaved kids

15

4-5 years is a pretty rubbish age where everyone treats you as big and grown up but you're still wearing clothes from BabyGap!

This transitional year for my daughter (now aged 5 and thankfully getting over it) has definately seen a resurgence of the tantrums mainly brought on, I suspect, by her first year at school. Add to this exhausting new timetable any amount of late nights, low blood sugar and change of routine and she just loses it. It's almost as if she can keep up the front for so long and then suddenly it's too much and she's saying 'OK help me please, I don't know how to cope with this anymore'. Of course when she was younger she would just crash out in the day to catch up, but she now is too old to do that.

It's really since I started remembering that she is still only little, cutting her some slack in the expectations department and throwing in an awful lot of cuddles and plenty of sleep (for both of us!) that we've got the even keel back. We tell how much we don't like the tantrums but overdo that 'good behavior' praise BIG TIME.

www.fourgortw.co.uk

16

I agree with what you say- and agree that the answer is not to ok the tantrums, but to do your best to change the situation that leads to them. I do think that many kids are so stressed out by school and afterschool activities that they aren't given the opportunity to simply crash out, if not for a day, then for much of a day.

But the kind of overtired overstressed meltdowns that you are largely describing is not the kind of tantrum children who have learned that it is a successful manuvour for getting their way have. I had that- a child who, for example, would want to empty the sugar bowl into her mouth after a good meal finished up with ice cream- she had been taught that this would work, as people were afraid of her getting angry and shouting, etc. Children who want what they want when they want it- and will not take no for an answer. And have never been taught that no really can be an option.

I would be interested to know what countries we were referring to where children were regarded as free spirits. Off the top of my head I really cannot think of one. Any ideas?

17

#13 - that is rubbish. I'm sorry but tantrums are absolutely not normal behaviour for four year olds. At two, some children do go through a phase where they cannot deal with tiredness, irritability and so on, but speaking with some authority regarding child development, if a four year old is doing this regularly, it is probably because they hae found it an effective means of getting their own way.

One of my kids was a tantrummer at two. We found it quite simple to deal with. We offered comfort when she recovered, but she never benefited from a tantrum in any way, and when we discussed it with her afterwards, we made it clear that she would not get what she wanted, because she had behaved in that way. Consequently the phase was short lived.

My nephew and niece on the other hand, always got what they wanted by throwing a paddy, so no, they did not grow out of it by five. They are now 15 and 16, and they still scream and yell to get what they want.

And no #13. My kids' spirits have never been crushed. They are great, happy teenagers who love life, and are very popular with their peers, and with other adults.

Kashgar lies where the maps in people's minds dissolve.

18

But back to the OP. It has to be said that travelling is very disorienting for young children. Their routines are lost, they have to fit in with the sightseeing plans of adults, and are often less easy going than they might be in this situation. It would be great if all kids just fell asleep when they were tired, but more often than not, they just get miserable.

She is likely to behave better for you. Virtually all kids behave better for aother people, simply because they cannot be certain of their reaction. I would use that if you can. Talk to her beforehand. "I know that you are getting a bit tired. This journeys going to take us a little while, but when we get there and you've been very good, we'll find somewhere to get you a drink and a little treat"

And at some time when all is calm, talk to her about how you were very upset that she kicked/hit her Mum. "Now that you are getting to be a big girl, you should not be doing that any more. I really don't like to see it" Make it clear that if she continues to do that, you will be likely to withdraw some of your attention/treats. And of course, praise her when she accepts a disappointment well.

Kashgar lies where the maps in people's minds dissolve.

19

Travellingmum - You are right on the ball. Your daughter will be an amazing woman to have a mom who is as tuned in to life and loving as you are! Bravo!

As a professional in the field, let me assure everyone here that healthy and normal children have tantrums. It's a fact of life. Children have tantrums because they do not have the emotional maturity to express everything they feel and the cognitive skills to find more appropriate solutions. Sometimes, they just lose it. Squashing this behaviour crushes the spirit, leads to repressed emotion and you end up with teenagers and adults with relationship problems, authority problems, and depression.

#17 - Children are regarded as free spirits throughout most of Asia, where I have spent many years. The North American ideal of "individualism" is not present here and thus, children are not forced to act like miniature adults as soon as they can toddle. In Thailand, a crying toddler will be tickled and smiled at. In China, a tantrum-throwing three year old will be smiled at. in Japan, a four year old running around a restaurant will be called into the kitchen for a special treat. As a result of such loving reactions, the tantrums wane naturally.

#18 - You assure me that your teenagers's spirits have not been crushed and you provide evidence of it, i.e., they are popular with their peers. Perhaps this popularity is a result of learning to masterfully please others around them for fear of being rejected if they show their true selves. I think I came across a picture of your children -- the one in the middle is especially well behaved and well adjusted: Family photo
;)

Kids yell, scream, dance, love, and laugh. They should be encouraged to do so. So should adults. It is healthy. We need not silence our emotions--the world can be a scary place, a great place, a dizzying place -- let's teach our children to express that. If a four year old needs to scream in a taxi for 30 minutes while in a foreign country, good for her -- she is learning how to safely express her emotions. This is far better than sitting politely for 30 minutes and then taking up heroin to dull the residual pain when she's a teenager.

Rescue the well-behaved robot children!

20

Words fail me.

Kashgar lies where the maps in people's minds dissolve.

21

No - I can't leave it.

By your logic,-a) if all and sundry dislike my kids, I've been a good parent.

-b) Kicking and hitting others is healthy behaviour

-c) screaming for 30 minutes is a positive thing. Sorry, if those screams were genuine, that child was extremely, unhealthily, distressed.

I'm obviously completely deluded in thinking that my girls are happy, affectionate, warm and generous people. I'd better get them on the waiting list for rehab now.

You know nothing about my kids ( and how mature of you to provide that link), nor do you know any more about my parenting, other than that I handled my youngest's tantrums in the way I stated. No parent is perfect, but I have at least been thoughtful, empathetic and loving, so spare me your accusations and dire predictions.

Kashgar lies where the maps in people's minds dissolve.

22

Tokyoagogo, you state that you are a professional in the field, but are you a mother?

As the parent of 4 children, one with Down Syndrome , I have come across many professionals in various fields who are able to give good sound advice - until they have children of their own and then their view points change dramitcally.

OP - just keep in mind, your niece is a little child, who really only wishes to be with her mother. Try and understand where she is coming from - most of the places you are going to and excited about are probably nothing more than a bore to her. When we go away, a lot of the time, we take in turns to 'watch' our son with DS and do more what he is more interested in, which in turn makes the break more enjoyable for everyone, rather than forcing him to do something extremely uninteresting for him.

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

23

Words also fail me.

Children in Asia are free spirits. Like my daughter before we adopted her- destined to begin carpet making at age 4? perhaps the children of India maimed so that their parents can beg more pathetically? Or the many girls of China, given away because they are not boys. And those left, until recently, mained in the name of fashion. Have you watched a group of Japanese school children? Well behaved and not a one of them running and screaming. True, they are not taught about being an individual but rather parents used the concept of group shame. The result is well mannered children. Not robots, but members of the human race, learning that attacking others to get your way is not appropriate.

We are not talking about 8 month old children here- but rather a child at age 4 or 5. And maybe in your world screaming and kicking for 30 minutes because someone said no to her about something that was in her own good and for her own protection is a wonderful expression of emotion, but for most of us, that child needs some control and discipline. And please, save us the I am a professional- I am also a professional. Not to mention a mother. And I do not in any way condone unbridled aggression on the part of children in the name of free expression of emotion.

24

I find it very interesting that both Sarah55 and 5Waldos, the two women who have taken greatest offense at my suggestion that children should be able to express themselves freely, both state:

"Words fail me"

as the opening of their responses.

Don't let words fail you. Allow them to empower you. Speak freely. Teach your daughters and sons to do the same.

I am a mother, yes. A forgiving one, don't worry.

Sarah55 - I am sorry that you felt I was making "dire predictions" -- I was speaking strictly hypothetically. As you said, I don't know your children. I am sure that they will be fine: children are quite resilient.
Robot kids

5Waldos - I'm having difficulty following your train of thought. North Korea has some of the world's best behaved kids. Whilst the rest of the world indulges the every whim and fantasy of their children, and as a result is populated by loud, obnoxious, precocious, adventurous, inquisitive children, things are rather different north of the 38th parallel. Children are amazingly docile and compliant, obediently following the instructions of their elders as if they know no other way. It is not uncommon in Pyongyang to see parents walking hand in hand with their young children, with the child walking in near perfect step right behind. Whilst on one hand these kids are well behaved, it seems on the other that they have had the creativity and spontaneity of childhood taken away from them. The unquestioning following of the instructions and behaviour of adults suggest that the children are aware of the consequences of misbehaviour in adulthood, and don't wish to dabble in it. There is a sense of defeat about children's behaviour - that they are subconsciously aware of the intransigence of the status quo, and have decided to meekly accept it.

Naughty children unite!

25

My train of thought is fairly straightforward. Many of the children of Asia are far from being this fantasy of a free spirit you are positing. For many of them, there is no such thing as a childhood. They take on responsibility nearly as soon as they can walk. By the time they are in their teens they are worn out. Childhood is rare in many many places.

Are you really advocating indulging the every whim and fantasy of children? Leading to "loud obnoxious precocious adventurous and inquisitive children"? Especially the loud and obnoxious? And why should we assume that adventurous and inquisitive children have to be loud and obnoxious? Overindulged children are often miserable- both as children and as adults. They do not have any parenting. They are desperate for boundaries and structure. Does a child in the midst of a tantrum look like they are expressing themselves? What I see is a child in a state of complete meltdown, out of control, and hating it. It is really easy to overindulge a child- much easier than parenting. And why is it that free expression has to result in tantrums and acting out? Why is it not possible to be both polite and sensitive to the world around you at the same time as you are creative and adventuress.

There are a lot of really obnoxious children these days- unpleasant to be around, selfish and self centered, with no ability to see beyond their own demands. With no sense that anyone else in the world counts but them. I'm not talking about 8month olds, but children entering school, for example. I do not see this as healthy in the least- at what point to these members of the human race learn that they are part of a society? For some of them it is a terribly rude awakening.

26

5Waldos -- thanks for your eloquent post. You and I seem to be on the same page after all. I agree that childhood is a luxury for many children. A sad fact.

I am not advocating indulging a child in everything. Certainly not. I am advocating a gentle and loving way of parenting, free of shame and over-control.

I agree that a child in the midst of a tantrum appears out of control and miserable. They are. But this is an important and natural way to release emotion in a safe way. It is an expression of emotion, yes. It is cathartic, just as a good cry can be even at our age!

And I wholeheartedly agree that there are many truly obnoxious children around these days, self-centered, yes. But I believe that this self-centeredness soemtimes arises as a mechanism to survive in a world where one's "self" is threatened to be crushed by overcontrolling parents.

Thanks again for taking the time to write. I appreciate it a great deal and I understand what you are saying.

Down with Robot Children!

27

" I don't know your children. I'm sure that they will be fine: children are quite resilient"

I can't believe that you wrote that. You still have the arrogance to assume that I have parented badly, and that my children will need to get over it.

Thankyou 5Waldos, for eloquently saying everything that I would like to say, but am feeling too angry to express clearly.

Kashgar lies where the maps in people's minds dissolve.

28

tokyo-no, I do not think that you and I are on the same page, and saying so, ie, using words to cloud the issue, does not make it so. First, If you know your history, you know that "childhood" is a western invention, and a recent one at that. And one which is, to my mind, often misunderstood.

I could not disagree more that a tantrum is a natural way to release emotion in a safe way. Nor do I agree that self-centeredness is a mechanism to survive overcontrolling parents. In fact, as I look around, it is most often children who are required to provide all of their own control that most often have tantrums. (Although I would also say that some children are more given to tantrums than others). And yes it may be cathartic to some degree. So is beating the shit out of someone who disagrees with you. Should we allow this because it makes the beater feel better? I think not. I have watched children hit, break things, bite, and scream for long periods of time in the midst of a tantrum. Is that ok? NO. There are ways of expressing emotions that are perfectly acceptable. And children (as well as other people) need to learn this.

What I see are way too many adults who are afraid to be parents. Afraid to say no. Afraid that they might crush their childs creative spirt. Afraid that the child may not like them for a while. The role of a parent is not to be the child's friend- it is to be a parent. And that sometimes means having the child furious and angry at you. I have recently had to make some serious changes in my daughters life- and god knows she was FURIOUS with me for a while- for those of you who understand, I was the world's worst mother for a time. Did it make me feel good? No, of course not. But neither did it crush me. I had to do it, and know that she will come to understand why later. Those are the kinds of things parents have to do.

You might want to reread The Lord of the Flies to remember that children are not natural saints. And Sarah55- your kids sound great, and I suspect that it took a fair amount of work on your part to ensure that. Congrats- being a parent can be a thankless job. But in the end, you can see the results of your efforts in the smiles in their eyes.

29

I don't know who I agree with.

I do know that youth suicide is on the increase so, as parents, we are doing something 'wrong'. Perhaps it's the boxes we try to place our young people in, or our unrealistic expectations of them.

This generation is really caught up in 'perfecting' children.