45

Isn't this fun, we've gone from tipping in a hotel to discussing the merits of the capitalist system and work ethics :).

#48 CEO's don't really have that low a base salary and their bonus is considered like many consider a tip, something obligatory that just needs to be signed off every year rather than what it is supposed to be 'performance based'.

I can't remember which company it was 'one of the big multinationals based in the UK' that caused waves when their board of shareholders refused to sign off on the bonuses because they were of the opinion the company hadn't performed so they didn't merit it. I also remember 'this one was definitely one of the big UK banks' their CEO turned down his bonus because the company hadn't performed well that year.

Both situations seem ridiculous, in the first instance the matter shouldn't have even have gone before the board of shareholders because if performance standards hadn't been met the bonuses shouldn't even have been a possibility and in the second case the CEO shouldn't have been offered the bonus for exactly the same reason.

46

Actually quite a few CEOs have $1 base salaries. Quite a few. Here are some well known ones.

http://14clicks.com/executives-1-dollar-salaries/

Another recent member of the $1 CEO club is Meg Whitman of eBay fame.

47

Actually Fowler is right, many CEO's have walked away with millions after completely screwing over their company and shareholders, most notably during the fallout from the GFC. Of course incentives exist on top a CEO's base salary but these are manipulated by those at the top in order to get even more rich. You cannot logically compare this to a waiter barely getting by on tips. Let's have a look at some stats regarding how much CEO's earn.

The average wage of a CEO in the Fortune 50 takes home 379 times that of their employees. Tim Cook from Apple is currently pulling in 1000x more than the average apple employee. It's thanks to absurd pay structures like these that 93% of Americans wealth last financial year was distributed among less than 1% of it's citizens. This is the same approach to hyper captialism that says it is okay to pay your wait staff $2 per hour.

As for your comments regarding the Soviet Union/Greece; you probably don't need me to remind you that the good ol USA is not in the best shape at the moment either. Unemployment is at an all time high and foreign debt is out of control. Just recently the US reached a debt ceiling and the only way out was to borrow more money.

I agree that pay incentives are an important part of a successful private enterprise. But to earn a 1000 more than the next employee is grossly over the top and ultimately the undoing of the USA. The money is their to pay off the debts needed to make the US prosperous again, but it is all tied with a small number of CEO's who hardly pay any taxes due to various loopholes in the system.

48

Sidetracked indeed :-)

#49 Regarding VAT

In Australia we have Goods and Services Tax (GST). It's 10% across the whole country and doesn't vary at all between states. The major bonus to the consumer is that it is against the law to advertise a price that does not include GST. Therefore you will always pay what is advertised and never have add 10%. Adding 10% is easy enough but it gets a little annoying in the US when work with random numbers and 1c coins.

49

You are referring to golden parachutes. Those apply not when the CEO walks away, but when the CEO is sent away. It's negotiated as part of the employment agreement when the CEO is hired. Many CEOs have them. Many don't. Of course, when a CEO does have one and it takes effect, it makes the news since generally there's going to be a scandal involved. When a CEO is sent away and doesn't have one.... you don't hear a peep on the news. No drama, no news. Such is the nature of journalism in our society.

Oh, the US in a precarious position. I've said that to the ill will of many of my fellow Americans. But don't confuse public debt with private debt, The government is out of control. Private enterprise on the other hand is having historic levels of success. For many many many companies, they have never made so much money and had so much money in the bank. Revenues and profits are at record highs.

As for US having unemployment at all time high. One, that's not even close to true. It's 8% right now. All time high was 25%. Average unemployment since WW II has been 5.8%. Two, while 8% is high for the US, compared to Europe, even 8% unemployment is on the low side.

I don't think you fully understand what the debt ceiling is. It's a self imposed budget limit. So when it's raised, all that means is that we've raised the self imposed limit to borrow yet more money. So it's not that borrowing more money is the only way out, it's the status quo. But in the end, what separates us from pretty much every other country on earth is that the private sector is so robust that people all over the world are literally throwing money at us rather than keep it at home. In real terms, they are paying us in the hopes of getting back most of their money someday. Thus enabling us to run deficits that alone dwarf the budgets of multiple countries combined. It's precarious. One day, that may all stop. On that day we will be Greece over night. But we will be Greece with enough money in private hands to wipe out the debt. How that mechanism may work is another story. But it is not unprecedented. A similar shortfall occured in WW II. Private citizens stepped up and it was dealt with.

And moving slightly more back on track. Yes, the minimum wage for a waiter/waitress is $2.13/hour in the US. Believe it. If not, google it and find that it is the truth. But there is a caveat. The minimum wage is $2.13 if the waiter/waitress makes at least $7.25/hour once tips are factored in. If they don't, the employer is required to pay them the difference. Thus the real minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Why doesn't a waiter/waitress just refuse tips then and be guaranteed $7.25/hour? Because they generally make more with tips. It also depends on the part of the country. $2.13/hour must be in a economically depressed part of the country. In California, the waitstaff I know make $10-$13/hour + tips.

50

I really see no point repeating what have been said before. Regarding VAT exactly like in OZ in EU it's illegal to advertise and sell anything without posting total price. Still in many places in the South or Germany it's common to eat lunch for 5 EUR, sometimes it's even a buffet.
If this price suppose to "include 15% service fee" like goyestoeverything suggest it means that caterers are giving away food for free, or they simply don't pay their employees.
I really have no idea what make yanks believe in such nonsense, but most of them think that in my country we fight polar bears drunk with vodka, as we don't have a TV to entertain...
What am I saying, most of they in fact don't even know that Europe is not a country.
Sorry for those stereotypes, but how on Earth can I explain some believing in such nonsense as 15% included in the bill?!

Underpaid servers don't really make restaurants cheaper in US, this is another nonsense argument. As I've said there are many regions and countries where restaurants are way cheaper than US, if you go to Paris of course you may expect to pay more, but at least no one will terrorize you with 15% charge at the end + another 5-10% tax !
I agree with hazzdawg that is dishonest but also annoying system as the total always comes uneven, that's why I always pay with plastic. I hate million coins in my pocket...


If it's true what you are saying I will not leave even a freaking cent to anyone.
So let's translate it:
Waiters can get this money from their employer, but they prefer ME to pay their wages?
This is not only emotional blackmail, but really sneaky way of thinking.

After confirming that this is a fact I will not leave even a small tip anymore.

Edited by: ban_janti_return

51

#54

Regarding unemployment, my bad. I had meant to say recent times rather than all time. As you point out there have been far worse periods of unemployment. I believe Great Depression is another example. And yes compared to somewhere like Spain 8% is pretty good. It would have been more pertinent of me to point out housing foreclosures or government funding cuts.

I would not argue that many of the most successful corporations in the world are based in the US, and they are just as rich and powerful as ever. However I don't see this really benefiting the country as a whole when their riches are controlled by very few people who pay very little tax.

I am in fact aware of the basic premise of the debt ceiling in that it is a self imposed debt limit set by the government. As you know they reached this limit recently, and instead of properly addressing the issue they just decided the raise it. They will no doubt do this again next time they reach the ceiling and I don't think this is sustainable. The government should be looking at ways to return the budget to surplus in order to control this spiraling debt. Actually taxing the super rich and not declaring decade long unnecessary wars would be a good start. As you speculate, I believe the day will come where the US will find itself in a Greece like situation. Perhaps I am skeptical but I have serious doubts that Americas top corporations will volunteer to fit the bill.

Edited by: hazzdawg

52

It takes two to tango. I talk about the issues, you contribute nothing but personal attacks since that's all you are qualified to contribute. Yet your attacks are pathetic and juvenile at best. You'd think you'd be better at it with all the practice you've had.

53

Too bad the moderators do not lock some threads here. :0 . This one needs about 10 chastity belts attached.

54

Personally I found contributing to yesterdays debate more interesting than the usual questions about which tour company to take in Galapogas or a female solo travelers concern about safety in South America. Perhaps I'm in the wrong forum

55

#59
Don't like it, don't read and contribute! What is wrong with you?!
#60 You are in the right forum, #59 seems to simply have hers funny days, as women you would probably understand more than I do

56

#58

You talk about issues! Like breakfast in a hostel?

57

#60, you're in the right forum. I was thinking about posting the same thing. Some people on this forum have decided that this is "their" forum and they can dictate what other people can say. Rather than censor what they read, they rather censor what others write. The vast majority of this forum is my itenary is blah blah blah in X days, is that OK? Response is, yeah that's great!!! Have fun. Rinse and repeat. If people only want to read those threads, the subject header makes it abundantly clear which threads are those and which aren't. They should exhibit some self control and only pick the threads they like. Nothing says they have to click on every thread. Yet instead they click on every thread and complain about how a thread doesn't meet their requirements.

58

fowler9 and squidstrips - I see no reason to fight, it's quite vibrant discussion and I honestly love it
squidstrips is fully entitled to have it's own opinion, and it's both entertaining and educational to see opposite ideas here
As long as we keep it civilized and far from ad personam for me it's one of the most interesting discussion recently.
I don't agree with squidstrips ideology about tipping, but I respect his right to fight for his point of view.
Regarding #63 I agree totally with the line of argument, I don't have a feeling that squidstrips is a troll that want to start fights and he is totally entitled to post his point of view

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
-Voltaire

Edited by: ban_janti_return

59

Hey folks. I apologise for arguing, didn't realise I was such a nark. Ha ha. I guess I should wind my neck in.