15

Hi RayosX and colleagues,

Now that I have lived here for 8.5 yrs it is tough to put me in your shoes as travellers. As tourists you obviously hook up with others of your nationality or travellers. RayosX when you came to my place in SLP it was really different - my co-workers were Potosinos, you know maybe you missed that. When a person lives in a place it is completely different - of course my colleagues are MXs, I live and work in MX.

But the GTO SMA situation suggests something other, these are people, couples mostly, who do not work in Mexico. See, this makes me nervous. I am not like this, I do not live apart from people. I think this was the idea of that piece, that these retirees are separate from their communities.

That´s hard to take, in Mexico. Our neighborhoods and communities here are very much the fabric of our lives. You, RayosX saw how close I was to the Letys next door. I was a part of their family. Just as here in Zac I am a part of the family of my landlords, I am responsible for 20 yr old kid to do work and study. Its what happens in Mexico.

My new roomate just came home, he lives apart from his hijas, but we did a big flower baloon thing for them. You gotta know in Mexico this thing of the family.
Its huge. Its the most important thing in their lives.

Probably cuz I am a single with dog type it is easier for me to make these close relationships. Also, moving to a place without work stuff is trouble for making good friends. But these are only my observations, anyone with outgoing skills can make easy friends here in MX, I think.

You may be very lonely for awhile. But that will pass - get a doggie!

16

Hi RayosX and colleagues,

Now that I have lived here for 8.5 yrs it is tough to put me in your shoes as travellers. As tourists you obviously hook up with others of your nationality or travellers. RayosX when you came to my place in SLP it was really different - my co-workers were Potosinos, you know maybe you missed that. When a person lives in a place it is completely different - of course my colleagues are MXs, I live and work in MX.

But the GTO SMA situation suggests something other, these are people, couples mostly, who do not work in Mexico. See, this makes me nervous. I am not like this, I do not live apart from people. I think this was the idea of that piece, that these retirees are separate from their communities.

That´s hard to take, in Mexico. Our neighborhoods and communities here are very much the fabric of our lives. You, RayosX saw how close I was to the Letys next door. I was a part of their family. Just as here in Zac I am a part of the family of my landlords, I am responsible for 20 yr old kid to do work and study. Its what happens in Mexico.

My new roomate just came home, he lives apart from his hijas, but we did a big flower baloon thing for them. You gotta know in Mexico this thing of the family.
Its huge. Its the most important thing in their lives.

Probably cuz I am a single with dog type it is easier for me to make these close relationships. Also, moving to a place without work stuff is trouble for making good friends. But these are only my observations, anyone with outgoing skills can make easy friends here in MX, I think.

You may be very lonely for awhile. But that will pass - get a doggie!

17

This piece - this collection of strung together words is 3-4 or more years old It just bounces around the blogosphere. Really good copies have been auto-translated into Croatian then Finnish and back into pretty humorous English.

Doug, the Bard of the Bajio, Bower has gone through at least three phases in his GTO squat. 1 he was the self-proclaimed Gringo Ambassador of GTO going up to 'newbies' he'd spot in the plazas and glad handing them may have been a coy trick to glean a free lunch? At this point the few local ex-pats had never heard of him, met him or knew what he looked like which made it hard to avoid him. Phase two began when not being able to gain entry to the gringolandian gated communities which in GTO are pretty hard to find as their really are none he took on a love affair with the locals - until that soured and he'd piss and moan in his columns about them. Final stage a year or two ago was when he was outed as being an illegal immigrant in Mexico. We haven't seen him in quite a while - he may have gone back to Area 51 where under another pen name he says he was brought up. Bad as he was when he was here - its too quite now and some of us miss his zanny nonsense. You can see some local reaction to his presence on the GTO ex pat forum - gtolist.com

BTW The Bard coined a word for his detractors here: fakepats!
And finally we don't much use the term gringo

18

called gabachos up north here

19

Thanks for the responses. Maybe I was a bit too reactionary to the posting (after out tasting some good microbrews in the rare sun of the NW) and it had me worried. He did seem a bit off about the gay pride parades. I agree it was a bit of a rant. If he is a conservative, this makes sense! And of course, we all have different experiences. Maybe the writer is fearful of the fact that things are changing and he cannot control that.

I agree it is easy to take a bus and get away from the fakepats or gabachos where you can commune with the locals. My first visit to SMA was pleasant and I met all kinds of interesting folks, travelers, locals and some expats. Maybe I just did not spend enough time in GTO or SMA. This March, I had a bit of an unpleasant experience at La Gruta (outside SMA) with some unfriendly and unpleasant expats that I would rather not have encountered. When I was in the bus in SMA town, it was swarming with gringos-this was too much for me!!

It is kind of funny when a Mexican tells me I should go to SMA to visit. I say, "Why would I do that, there are too many gringos there?!" Then I say, "There are a lot of gringos where I live and I did not come to Mexico to see gringos!" They always seem to think that is funny...but it is true. Maybe they think gringos get lonely for their own?

And the expats that do assimilate, have a better time all around. Heck, I cannot imagine moving to Mexico (or any other country) just to have all the conveniences of your home country while living cheaper. Because after time, that won't even matter. So, I have to say I agree with a few things the writer has to say, as well as those of you who live there, because I am still just a visitor to Mexico these days. Someday.......

20

Rayosx; it's striking how the majority of opinions on that article on TTMB, differ so much from those I have read on Michoacan_Net (Yahoo Groups). I suppose that the points of view of visitors tend to be substantially different than those of expats living in-country. From what I read, those on Mich_Net tended to be more in agreement of the author's premises. Those here on TTMB tend to be skeptical or dismissive .

Yesterday, our friend, "G.", arranged an excursion to a hot springs balneario for us and her Mexican neighbor friends of her village. Michoacán. We had a great outing and I don't think any of us were especially conscious of cultural divides. We were just people out enjoying themselves. In my opinion, this is how it should be. I have to give a lot of credit to "G" for establishing such excellent intercultural relations.

Adding: I would have to say that expats do get lonely for their own. Why wouldn't they? That doesn't mean that their desire to associate with people of similar background precludes making friends with Mexicans. I cringe a little. though, when I read announcements for expat social groups events that have qualifying entry requirements, such as "English speaking".

Obviously, this topic is complex and emotion evoking. I am still sorting out my own thoughts on it.

Edited by: Anonimo

21

Anonimo,

I agree. And having only been a traveler so far, I have found myself cringing ( I recall at my second visit to Patzcuaro) while sitting in the Plaza Grande; and being shamed by loud obnoxious gringos. I found myself turning my chair and body, hoping they would not see me and try to engage in conversation as I was embarrassed by their actions. You see them all over the world in fact.

I think it is not unusual to want to be around your "own." I know I do as my Spanish lacks and I get tired of sometimes trying to understand what is going on in Spanish. But I think possibly the expats attitude is they got their first so the rest of you can stay the heck out. Dunno. I have met expats in various places in Mexico who have taken me in to share a meal or whatever (as you an tu esposa have as well as zapfilms) and that always has been a joy for me in my travels.

Certainly, these are the people I want to know if/when I decide to make south of the border my future home. These are the ones that can share more of the culture for those of us who are not totally submerged yet. But, I do know the type the writer is talking about....I am just hoping they are NOT the norm as we need to be good ambassadors as our country does not have a lot to be proud about lately, that is for sure.

I agree it is complex subject.

22

My experiences have been the exact opposite of rayosx's. I spent more than a week in Patzcuaro, including lots of time in both plazas. I didn't see any loud obnoxous gringos, none. I did see many who were very respectful of the locals and of their culture. And I spent about two weeks in San Miguel without ever seeing a chicken bus swarming with gringos. Rarely even saw any gringos on chicken buses. And the ex-pats I meet in my Mexico travels are friendly & pleasant.

Buen viaje!

23

The plot thickens

Follow the links.

24

Well, after reading more about Doug, I digress. I guess if I had read more about his ranting and reputation before posting, I would have not have. But, I guess it got a lot of attention!! I digress...........

Aloysius, that was one incident in the plaza in Patz. (I have visited several times since 04) and I have spent much time there myself with several friends/acquaintances in the area. And when I spoke of SMA, it was at La Gruta. It was so bad, I would never return and I so wanted to return after a very pleasant visit in 04. It was different and not to my liking-due to my expat experience. Have you really never seen a gringo acting badly? I can think of numerous times throughout my travels (not just Mexico) and a few stand out. Glad your experiences are rosey.

Stewbear, I am not a guy, so as a gal, maybe I interpret obnoxious differently. When one is alone, they can be "observant" in a different way than when in a group. For the most part, my experiences have been more positive than not.

25

#24... hmmm... Doug reminds me of the guy who rented from me last winter supposedly putting out a website on "how to live in Mexico on the cheap"... which apparently includes not paying ones rent. Doug writes better (whether fiction or non-fiction, can't say), but just about anywhere you go in Mexico you find these guys who seem to miss the "good ol' days" of being shady characters in a sunny climate — or at least terminally unique.

Neither Mexicans who have been around gringos, nor gringos who live here, have much use for these kind any more. I was evil gringo #1 in my former tenant's on-line diatribes for a time, and I suppose if like that guy you believed the world revolved around you, I was.

I get the sense what really bothers those kind of people is that there are too many gringos here for them to get away with their self-romanticized or self-aggrandized tales of derring-do and claims of being THE expert on the country as a whole (think of the poster formerly known as — among other handles — "longford and "lakewoebegone" here). And, especially in places like SMA and elsewhere, more than enough Mexicans that say "¡Ya Basta!" to catering to these kinds of people.

That said, yeah... sure there's drawbacks to the "gringoization" of Mexico, and some I complain about (and write about extensively) — and I don't particularly care for the foreigner enclaves. I don't care for the neo-liberal economic system, or genetically modified foods, or some provisions of NAFTA either. But they're here, and Mexico was going to change (better or worse, I can't say), so about the only thing I can do is do like the Mexicans... and treat gringo-watching as cheap entertainment (and recognize that I'm part of the show).

26

I knew at least three loud, obnoxious, resident gringo/as in Pátzcuaro, but fortunately, the worst one has left and the second spends at least half the year away. I don't know where the loud gringa is. Maybe she left. ¡Ándale, pues!
I may have missed a few more., but fortunately, I can't think of any.

The longer you stay and hang out at Gringo meccas in Pátzcuaro, the better chance you have of spotting one. But, gracias a Dios, they are not commonly encountered. We don't have all that much exposure to the Pátzcuaro social whirl, but fortunately, most Pátzcuaro area expats that we know are cool, simpático people.

27

But, I presume you don't go out of your way to find "loud, obnoxious, resident gringo/as" which Doug appears to have made his mission in life. Of course they exist, and I suppose if you go looking for them, you'd find them, but then... most people have better things to do with their time.

28

Of course, Rich. I stay away from them if possible.

29

"and treat gringo-watching as cheap entertainment (and recognize that I'm part of the show".

How funny and true but a little goes a long way!!

Oh, and I am surprised LW has not added his input. Is he on vacation or changed his handle?