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Thanks for your reply travlingstyle. That pretty much sums-up what I had thought.

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TIS wrote:

I agree.

Most schools will accept almost all certifications. The smart schools don't try to evaluate the certificate as there are too many schools worldwide to really get a handle on it.

What they will ask for is a demonstration lesson (if it can be done in person), a lesson plan on a specific topic or they will ask some in-depth questions during a telephone interview to see if the candidate has an understanding of methodology.

Can you get those skills from most programs? Probably. But most people won't get them unless the teacher trainer has some good insight into what makes teaching work and conveys those essentials to the teacher trainee.

Just my bias, but bottom line: it is the trainer, not the material, that helps the teacher trainees to really develop their skills. Yes, the course content is important, but without a guide (a good trainer) to really "get it" - most people are lost at developing the finer points/skills of TEFL/TESOL/TESL.

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I was going to pose a question about this topic until I realized there lives a resident salivating attack dog. Any seasoned traveller knows sometimes its better to walk on by quietly rather than tease a lurking hound by mere presence and unwanted noise. On the other hand maybe I'll throw in some bad speiling and grammur just to watch the phenomenon transpire. No I'll just walk on by thank you very much. Midbrain dominance on forums is highly overrated.

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F4UCorsair, you do talk a lot of crap don't you. You are like a lot of people who take certain things out of context and ignore other things at the same time.

What is it exactly that you think I haven't 'got' and won't concede? Let's hear what it is you have 'got' that I am missing.

What you and others haven't got (or choose to ignore) and won't concede is that many of those who take a course like this are not interested in doing even a reasonably competent job of teaching. All they want is a piece of paper that will get them a paying job. I've said that repeatedly but you and others do not comment on that statement, you come up with nonsense about not everyone with a PHD will be a good teacher and some with no qualifications will be good teachers. What has that got to do with anything?

Address the issue of a company who knowingly market a product to a group with no motiviation other than getting paid. Yes it is pissing into the wind, I'm not naive enough to think otherwise but I still insist on holding up that mirror to their face.

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TIS, I think a most of people in this world work with a primary motivation of getting paid. It doesn't mean that they have no desire to do a good job and don't give sh*t about their students. Kind a sad and jaded view you have.

It's just a matter of the view of the world you wish to take: everyone is a money-grubbing jerk out to soak the unsuspecting naive customer OR people work for a living and want some job satisfaction by way of knowing they have done a good job.

You create the world as you see it. If you see it that way then I am sure it is that way in your eyes. But not everyone has such a negative view of the world.

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ManchesterFan, you wrote, "TIS, I think a most of people in this world work with a primary motivation of getting paid. It doesn't mean that they have no desire to do a good job and don't give sh*t about their students." and that may perhaps describe yourself. I fully acknowledge and have here repeatedly that not everyone is a "money-grubbing jerk" as you put it.

However, you cannot just ignore or not acknowledge that such people do exist. If you have read several thousand posts here on the TT regarding getting some kind of TEFL qualification you would know that they do exist and many have posted here.

Saying some plan to do a decent job doesn't mean they ALL do. So why does everyone keep talking about the one group AS IF it applied to ALL and ignoring the other group? I have seen posts here where people have actually wrote something like, 'I don't care how good a job I will be able to do, I just want to get paid'. I have also seen first hand, students whose families scrimped and saved to pay for lessons for their child only to be taught by a teacher who was total crap.

Anyone who has experience in TEFL can tell you that there are crap schools who don't care about the students, just getting their money and crap teachers who the crap schools will happily hire.

In terms of this particular course, it is my opinion that it will appeal and that in fact the provider knows it will appeal to the group I am referring to. 'Give me 65GBP and I'll give you a certificate', the only qualification required (read their website) is that you speak English.' Who do you think that target market is? Someone with a PHD in English?

It isn't about a negative view of the world, I am not a negative person actually at all but in regards to this topic and what I have seen in person and here on the TT, there is no question in my mind as to the makeup of ONE group that it will appeal to and is designed to appeal to.

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'Give me 65GBP and I'll give you a certificate', the only qualification required (read their website) is that you speak English."

I object to that. You do the course and then see if you can say that!! I found the course challenging and I have an MSc in Education. I was annoyed with myself that I didn't achieve over 85% for a distinction. Am not sure if you could get the minimum mark to pass if you can just "speak English"

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Rochelle, you are one of the good guys who are interested in a course for the right reasons and no doubt would do the best job you could if teaching. You are not a member of the group who I am writing about and therefore, you have no reason to object. The remark is not directed at YOU.

In regards to getting a passing mark, what question is there that someone cannot Google the answer for? In any case, the provider, not me, is the one saying the only qualification needed is that you speak English. Or in other words that if you can speak English you will be able to pass.

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TIS wrote
In regards to getting a passing mark, what question is there that someone cannot Google the answer for?

I would love YOU to do this course!!!! I am sure you would get a lot more respect from people here if you did and could speak from experience rather than conjecture. There are lots of questions that can not be answered without reading the course as a many of the questions are a pure comprehension exercise but not a simple one - but one that has to be understood!! The worst questions for me and the ones I couldn't get perfectly correct which Google would not be able to help with were those that gave you a set of instructions and asked you to put the instructions in the order that you would give them in a classroom. The course obviously had their own ideas about this which were not the same as mine as a qualified teacher. Even with reading and re-reading the previous text I found it difficult to get in the correct order. There were others where you had to state how many syllables a word had and where the emphasis is given on the word. Again this would depend on what part of the country you live in!!! Seriously there were challenging parts of the course as well as the odd simple "derr brain" exercise of matching one part of a sentence up to another. But still google couldn't help you with this but another person could if you were not a native English speaker.

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Since I don't have much to offer on this I thought I would paste a blurb that seemed relevant to the discussion: I think the guy's name is... er "Not just another braying donkey" or something like that:

An Online TEFL Course IS good enough!

I read a lot on the internet that online TEFL training is not perfect and not as good as the stereotypical CELTA or Trinity certifications. Well . . . by definition an online course is uh . . . well . . . online. But even the famed CELTA these days is online. They do an observed teaching practice face-to-face, but so do most online courses. It is offered as an option almost everywhere.

So what is the fuss about?
To some degree most people are promoting the specific course they took. If you took a CELTA, you would be likely to say that only a CELTA is “good enough”. It is nice that you had the US$1800-2800+ the course can cost and had a month off without pay to take it, but not everyone has that option.

Why Online Courses are Just Fine
Because most countries don’t even require any TEFL training at all. And most that do, are just fine with online training. Of the two biggest EFL job markets, China and Korea, Korea does not require a certificate and China will accept online certificates. So the #1 and #2 teaching destinations are fine with it.

So then . . . what’s the problem?
Some of the issue is with Americans (I am one, so shuss!). In the States most any kind of “distance” learning is looked down upon. Partly because we just aren’t so familiar with it.

The United Kingdom (UK – England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for those who aren’t sure) pioneered distance training during the days of their empire. They had officers, armies and companies all over the world and needed to provide quality training to them. Families of their employees/representatives needed education too. So – distance education was born.

What’s GOOD about Distance or Online Education?
What’s good is that you can get the basics about how to teach English without spending a fortune, without taking four to six weeks off work with no pay, and you can still get a good decent idea about how to give your students the knowledge that they paid good money for.

That’s right. Your Students Pay Money to be in your Classroom.
Don’t you want to be able to deliver what they have paid for? No one wants to pay their money to sit in your class if you have no idea about how to effectively teach them English. No one! So – if you can’t afford the Full Monty from CELTA, SIT or others . . . get a good online training course so you have some idea about how to start and how to deliver what your students want.

Do you need Cambridge, Oxford or Harvard or . . . other training? No, not really. But you do need the basics of how to go about doing what you are getting paid for. You don’t want to feel like you are cheating your students.

#1: Online TEFL Training is fine for about 90% of the world’s EFL jobs. Will it meet the requirements everywhere? No. But then again I have a masters degree in education, PGCE in TEFL and about 20 years experience overseas and even I don’t qualify for 100% of the jobs out here.

Tips™ #2: Do the right thing – get some training so you can deliver what you students have paid for.

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"Tips™ #2: Do the right thing – get some training so you can deliver what you students have paid for."

That is really what this thread is all about chasm at the end of the day. But few seem to realize it or simply chose to be obtuse, as indicated from the comment to me above (265). They'd rather try to avoid the issue of will this course give them the training necessary to deliver what the student paid for and instead attempt to turn it into a personal attack.

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"Tips™ #2: Do the right thing – get some training so you can deliver what you students have paid for."

Yes TIS that really is what this thread is about and the one who started the thread with a simple question and likely every other reader and poster was and is quite capable of discerning that point without all the sanctimonious claptrap you cluttered up the thread with. You brought on what you percieve as personal attacks by your pious approach and the thread became more about the perpetual indulgence of you defending yourself from the predictable reactions of others. Visitors attracted to this thread by the opening statement may have to go elsewhere to get real info from other forums and sites not dominated by you weaving and wobbling atop a soapbox of your own making.

Edited by: chasm

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For the record my post RE: "An Online TEFL Course IS good enough!" wasnt written by me. I copied it from a post elswhere and I forgot the guys name. He seemed to know of what he spoke
and thankfully wasnt scrambling to stay atop a soapbox.

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Thanks chasm, but unfortunately the thread trasher won't stop at that and a search of other threads will indicate that very point. He chips away until people just give up in frustration, and even brags earlier in this thread that he attracts opponents, as trolls do. The expression 'know it all' originated because of people like TIS.

Your post # 268 is well written, and I understood that your earlier post was a quote, so I should have written 'I saw an inconsistency in chasm's quote', not 'in chasm's post'. Sorry.

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Groupies like you F4U are relatively common here on the TT. From a total of only 24 postings here on the TT, at least 20 are on this thread. "a search of other threads" seems to indicate that you are developing an unhealthy fixation and I would seriously suggest you seek professional help.

I see no inconsistency in your post quoting whoever and my comments chasm. Do a decent job for the student is all I am advocating. Unfortunately, whether people want to acknowledge it or not, there is a percentage of those who look for a cheap certificate and couldn't care less about how well they will do the job.

I look forward to the day when an organization like Khan Academy starts offering free english language lessons around the world and puts the TEFL industry, at the bottom feeder end of the spectrum, out of business.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Academy