ceb39 18-Jul-2008 22:13	If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Planning to spend 4 days in Marrakech to "get a feel for the city" that all guidebooks, not just LP, paint a rosy picture of, was the biggest mistake of my trip to Morocco. The huge numbers of people at every turn with expectations for some sort of monetary reward for trying to help, indeed using any talking tactic necessary to make it even appear that they have assisted you. Store owners in the souks who block your exit are no better. By day 3, rather than being desensitised, one finds oneself being rude and bositerous in order to repel the hustlers, and the amateur snake charmers and dancers who drape their wares on you to get their payment. I am sorry, but no one seemed genuine in Marrakech who didn't see dirham notes hanging off you when you walked along. But it seems I got off lucky, judging by reports on comments directed at female tourists by gutless Marrakech males. And theres no point saying "this is Morocco, this is Marrakech!" Thats a bullshit argument, its wrong in any language or country. I can attest that you never get this type of unwanted attention in Indon, the Pacific Islands, Nepal, China, Myanmar, Thailand, South America.... Story: day 3, a wary ceb39 is invited by a middleaged and educated shop owner to sit down and is offered a used cup to drink tea (rude to refuse according to the guides). "Relax!". Fine, nice chat, then said mo' fo' leans back and says I should give money to his destitute friend here becoz I used his cup. The incredible sight of Place Jemaa el-Fna on my first night will forever be etched in my memory, as will the cresent moon over the Koutoubia minaret, and the flavoursome fruit juices availble throughout the city. Unfortunately, so will the commercialised nature of its citizens. Marrakech, two days enuff I say.
kate88 19-Jul-2008 00:31	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I can sympathise with you my friend, North African culture can either be an exhilarating experience or can totally drive you to distraction, and Morocco has long been known for producing the world’s highest quality hustlers, scamsters and astonishingly wily merchants (of all possible products). On my very first trip to Tangiers (and Morocco) we were with a guy from Oz who got off the boat, got ripped off for a Taxi to the youth hostel, got in an argument with a hustler and had his wallet nicked in the space of an hour. He promptly got straight back on the boat and left again! Is too obvious to say you can’t judge a place by visiting one city, but believe me, Marrakesh is not representative of the rest of Morocco, just as London bares no similarities to my home in the North. In fact London feels as alien and hostile to me as Marrakesh does, even though I’m UK born and bread. I don’t know if you persevered with Morocco and left the madness of Marrakesh to find it’s true joy, I hope you did and this nightmare was an isolated experience. If not, well…..give it another go and you might find something that makes the stress worthwhile.
TimCullis 19-Jul-2008 00:35	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I used to love Marrakech, it was truly magical in the 1970s. Can you believe there was no traffic--hardly any cars, a few bicycles and donkeys. And it was tiny, about one-quarter the size of the sprawling metropolis it has become. When I visited in the 1980s the hassle and scams were terrible and I came close to action I would have regretted a couple of times. All I can say is that it gets better when you've been a couple of times. I hardly ever get approached nowadays and don't get anywhere near the amount of hassle as some people. I'm not sure why; maybe something to do with my demeanour? I just laugh good humouredly at some of the attempts. Other times I 'play rough', for example if someone draped a snake around my neck, I'd keep it and pretend to walk off with it. I hardly visit nowadays. To get the best out of Morocco you need to avoid the big cities and hot tourist spots and find the genuine people. Tim
sashac 19-Jul-2008 02:09	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Part of it is your how you look. My husband rarely gets bothered although he does so more in Marrakech, because he looks somewhat intimidating and looks like he always knows where he's going and what he's doing. If you want to try Morocco again we can all give you different ideas of where to go. Marrakech can be nice for a few days but there are definitely calmer, more mellow places in Morocco.
nusnus 19-Jul-2008 03:44	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I don't get hustled much in Marrakech either. It's down to attitude. Moroccans are very observant. There are three rules: play it cool, act confident, keep a sense of humour. Unless things have changed in Marrakech, Bab Boujeloud in Fes is far, far worse. Marrakech had a real problem some years ago. But if you stop and look at stuff, they will try and sell. They watch you as you come. I never, ever browse. At least in Morocco you don't get the bakhshish trip. Egypt is a real pain for that. Plus all the cruise tourists just pay up and you have to argue over every paistre. I told someone I know who'd done a Nile cruise about my approach to commercial transactions in Egypt and he just cringed and said, "I dont know how you can." I don't agree about the Marrakeshis, though. I have come across plenty of helpfulness and kindness in the streets. Guy: "What are you looking for?" Nusnus: "Yogurt. Bad stomach." Guy: "Go down there. No, just go down there." I find little shop with live yogurt. Or the traffic jam rue Mouassine: a donkey, two bikes and a truck. I hang back for things to clear and feel this hand on my elbow, very gently pushing me forward. I turn and look into this beautiful old face. The guy nods for me to go on. Moroccans are involved with other people, they have very little and basically they aren't materialistic but they understand human needs and desires. Don't knock it when those skills turn commercial. It has big rewards as well.
ceb39 19-Jul-2008 14:20	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Hi, I am certainly not judging all of Morocco by Marrakech. I should have mentioned that Marrakech was my last city after Tanger, Chefchaouen and Meknes. Even the legendary hustlers in Tanger ferry terminal did not eventuate. Chefchaouen and Meknes were great, chilled out places with no real hassles, maybe thats why Marrakech was all the more shocking for me.
Berber_Adventures 19-Jul-2008 14:49	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? "I am sorry, but no one seemed genuine in Marrakech who didn't see dirham notes hanging off you when you walked along." Obviously, you had a bad experience, but I'm sure this description isn't universally applicable. As you admit, the guide books paint a beautiful picture of Marrakech...they're not all lying. There is a lot of beauty to the city and its people, but admittedly it can get lost in the mistranslation of cultures. Let me explain. One thing you'll notice is that in the souks, it is not just tourists. In fact, there are just as many Moroccans as foreigners...especially at night in Djema Fina. What you may not have noticed is that Moroccans, TOO, have to bargain and, at times, enter into the tiresome charade of haggling over prices. It is a cultural game that is normal there. Now, Moroccans won't get the "snake charmer" treatment, for sure. But you'd be surprised that even Moroccans visiting Marrakesh from other parts of the country need something of a thick skin to deal with the souk dealers and opportunists. Like I said, at night the vast majority of people listening to the storytellers, watching the performers, and enjoying the music are Moroccans...all of whom are asked, like us, to pay for the experience. Places like Marrakesh and the old city in Fes require some cultural background and readiness that's hard to acquire quickly. But there are beautiful people and experiences to be encountered.
Fran_Bervard 19-Jul-2008 18:48	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Serves you right for being such bloody tourists.
Marocfan 20-Jul-2008 00:38	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? As most who read this forum know, I love Marrakech but to each his-her own. I have never had the negative experiences the OP reports. Maybe it was his/her attitude. And LOL about the comparison of what it was like in the 1970s. Nothing is the same as the 1970s...people complain about how great the "old" Honolulu was in the 70s...but life is change. Adapt to and enjoy it! Or, just don't go back to a place you don't like.
nusnus 20-Jul-2008 05:17	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I was there in the seventies. It was a pretty scruffy place. All we seemed to do was hang out, drink milkshakes and get high. Your expectations were low. Fes had a much bigger impact. I get more out of Marrakech now than I did then.
Marocfan 20-Jul-2008 09:19	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I wish I could have visited Marrakech in the late 1940s when supposedly they still displayed the severed heads of bad guys on pikes in the Jemaa. Great photo possibilities! Ah for the good old days!
nusnus 20-Jul-2008 15:33	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? No shortage of candidates even today. Let me think...
ceb39 21-Jul-2008 17:32	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I would go back to Marrakech for sure. And, were all tourists aren't we?
kate88 21-Jul-2008 19:07	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Bring on the heads on pikes I say! Old school!
catw 22-Jul-2008 00:22	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Yeah, Marrakech has considerably changed over the past ten years, and not for the best. I suggest you check Essaouira or Fès, you should still be able to see something more authentic for the time being. Honestly the bigest pain in Marrakech are not the local touts, but the newly-rich jetsetters who have bought so many old palaces in the Medina, destroying the old fountains to replace them with ugly swimming pools, as well as the brainless people who have paid to have the palmtrees around the city decimated and replaced by giant Dallas-looking houses. They are the ones who destroyed the soul of the city. Now as for being hassled... in Marrakech like in many places in the Middle-East, a lot depends on how you look like, meaning how you dress and how you behave. I am a white, 30-year old French woman and I have never been hassled in any Arabic country. Meanwhile, I have friends who are males full of muscle and who keep on being hassled. Why ? Because touts can tell in 30 seconds if you're the tourist type or not. Being dressed in a sensible way and watching people firmly when they interrupt you is everything. I guess it takes a bit of training but it's not that difficult.
kate88 23-Jul-2008 00:57	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I agree, it’s all about the way you carry yourself and how you deal with the situation. Much like the techniques used to stay out of trouble in a pub!! I also agree Marrakesh has changed a lot over the past 10 years…. both good and bad. It has become more clinical but they did reduce the amount of aggressive touts, so depending on what perspective you look at it, it could have changed for the better in some respects. But stripping the palmeries of the best specimens to plonk in the courtyard of a Euro owned riad is not! But hay ho…..we all move on.
nusnus 23-Jul-2008 03:45	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? To?
sashac 23-Jul-2008 04:02	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Charles - Are you looking for the big ageless `in the end' answer or just wondering where you're going for lunch?? :)
nusnus 23-Jul-2008 04:36	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Yeah, Sasha, very funny. No, just wondering where Kate is going to now if Marrakech is uncool. I mean, it could be Cairo.
sashac 23-Jul-2008 04:44	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Oh. Cairo and surrounding cities would be good or maybe other towns in Morocco.
nusnus 23-Jul-2008 04:53	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? The southern the sheep fairs are still mini Marrakeches on a good day. Some were on the same trade routes to the south. Seek and ye shall find.
zeldathewitch 23-Jul-2008 20:54	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I really love Marrakech, & as a petite Asian female I have to deal with cries of 'Japonaise!' or 'Chinoise'! pretty much everywhere I go in the Middle East or Africa. But as in most places, if you slow down (most tourists & travellers, including me, function on a speed a few notches above the locals), smile & exchange a few courtesies, you break that veneer of tout/hustler & a little more warmth is revealed. That said, I agree that Marrakech is not the best place to go if you cannot deal with hustle, you need to develop a thick skin. If you go to shop, go shopping with a purpose, & do your research before you venture into the souks! & as has already been said, confidence, or the appearance at least, makes a big difference.
kate88 23-Jul-2008 21:03	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Nusnus - Never said Marrakesh was uncool, just making an observation on how things seem different. "Move on" was more of a turn of phrase than a statment regarding my travel plans - LOL. I'll always go back to Marrakesh, however much it's changed it's still a fun place to be.
ceb39 24-Jul-2008 16:49	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Glad my post generated debate. I have talked to a few people and it appears tout hassles occur throughout the Mid East and India. But I don't see any way that one can appear confident finding your way around those souks, tourists are like lambs to the slaughter the moment they pull out a map. Do any of you guys know your way around them? But as I mentioned, I would go back. Indeed, the allure of Morocco is strong. Alas, its a long way from NZ.
kate88 24-Jul-2008 19:24	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Remember, you only need to create the illusion of knowing what your doing!!
sashac 25-Jul-2008 01:48	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Number 1 - don't carry a map. Take a page out of a guidebook, it's easier to hide what it is. If you need to look at it, go somewhere inconspicious or sit in a cafe and have some tea or something. Walk purposefully, it's better to pass a street and have to go back then to sit there and stare at the sign until someone notices you. Lastly - learn to say no thank you in the language of the place to which you are going. (We generally say it in Arabic in Morocco since it sounds more forceful then French).
nusnus 25-Jul-2008 02:58	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Everything Kate and Sasha say is absolutely true. People do notice what you are carrying, doesn't matter if it's a guide or a bottle of water. I used to find little corners to look at my map or sit in a cafe and memorise the route! I don't now because I don't get hustled much. Remember, for every hustler there is someone who is just being helpful or friendly and I make it a rule to give everyone who approaches me a chance. I want to go away and hide when I see other tourists ignore people or try and brush them off. It just looks uncool and uptight.
sashac 25-Jul-2008 03:07	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? That's true - it's something we don't say on this forum enough - generally speaking, Moroccans do try to be helpful. They do sometimes steer you in the wrong direction because they really want to be helpful but aren't really sure of the right way. Sometimes you can tell when someone is trying to help out (they are usually less aggressive about it).
nusnus 25-Jul-2008 04:02	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? And I've said this before, Moroccans like to make a good impression. All the kissing and hand holding and calling each other azizi are part of that. But they are also just sweet-natured. I've come across the most astonishing courtesy, too. But approaching people just for the sake of it is a very southern thing. Someone stops to chat in Casa or Rabat and it turns out they come from Skoura or Amizmiz.
sashac 25-Jul-2008 04:11	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? That is too true!! We've met a lot of Southern Moroccans that way (as well as a few more Northern, but not as many). North tends to be more businesslike about it. It's the same in the U.S. actually, especially in large cities.
kate88 25-Jul-2008 19:59	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? It took a few trips away for me to learn that you don't have to dismiss every approach from a stranger, even if you know that their intentions aren’t all innocent. Many of these guys are opportunists looking to see how far they can push it. When they discover that they won’t get far, the encounter can often turn in to a more relaxed affair, and many of these situations have turned in to opportunities to discover a bit more about the country and people you’ve come to visit. Nusnus – very true….there is definitely a more uninhibited attitude towards strangers in the south, maybe to do with the harsher environment. Maybe you don’t see so many people in these areas so it’s best to chat to anyone you can……they may be helping you out of a tricky situation a few days down the road! Sashac - Interestingly in the UK it’s the opposite. Northerners tend to be more forthcoming and approachable. Try and chat to a stranger down south (especially London) and they’ll look at you like a madman. Try the same in the north and you’ll probably be invite you for a pint! Probably due to the north being a harsher environment.
sashac 25-Jul-2008 22:21	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Kate_88 - that's really interesting. I feel I should clarify my statement however (I was in a hurry when I typed that). Actually, Northerner tends to be less friendly on the east coast. The midwest is generally friendly all around, I'm not sure about California - they're all crazy out there, lol. Anyway, my point is, it seems that the closer one gets to New York (a very unfriendly city) the less friendly people are. This seems to apply to Tangiers and London Actually, now that I think about it this also seems to apply to Marrakech - although people there can be friendly, the further from there you go, the more friendly people get. Interesting!! Mind you - these are all generalities, of course, there are nice and not-nice people everywhere.
Marocfan 26-Jul-2008 00:25	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Simple answer: people are generally friendlier in smaller towns, regardless of geography.
sashac 26-Jul-2008 00:31	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Dang Dale!! Just take all of my hard work typing up an answer and sum it all up in a sentence. I never knew I needed an editor before. LOL :)
nusnus 26-Jul-2008 04:30	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Kate, when I'm hiking in Romania and I say hello to country people, they sometimes reply, "God be with you!" Southern Moroccans think in the same way about strangers and travellers; they need God's protection because they know how difficult the environment they live in can be. Moroccans are opportunist because they have to make the best of any new situation that arises. That's why so many casual relationships are open-ended, as you were saying. And southerners can be pretty direct. Young woman in N'kob: "I went to university in Rabat. N'kob is boring. My aunt says do you want to come in and try her homemade bread?" Or, a man walks across the street to the cafe where I'm eating coffee and cake in Souk Ifrane in the anti Atlas and very politely asks, "Have you paid? Well, I'm going to pay for you." And he goes in, pays and walks off. All he said when I went to thank him later was, "It's a pleasure! It's a pleasure!" Shookmy hand. That was it. Minimum fuss. I sometimes think chivalry has survived in southern Morocco. It's the only thing I can think of to explain some of the extraordinary things that happen.
kate88 27-Jul-2008 05:53	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I like the small town idea. When you’re from a small town you learn to hang out with people that, in a big city, you might avoid. This makes you a lot more accepting of folk.
Marocfan 27-Jul-2008 09:24	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? And...if you LIVE in a small town, everyone knows your business!
nusnus 28-Jul-2008 07:29	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Specially in Morroco.
ceb39 04-Aug-2008 19:15	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Agree. It is the old small town friendliness vs. big town busyness argument. And another observation from all your comments is that the more times one travels to a country, the more experienced and relaxed one becomes. This in turn leads to less hassles and understanding and acceptance of what is going on around oneself.
alifbaa 09-Aug-2008 07:04	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I don't get hassled in Marrakesh anymore either. On the off-chance I do (and it's typically in Gueliz now by young men, more so than the medina), I just stick out my tongue or some other unsavory behavior. Another thing - the deeper into the medina you go, the less hassly it gets. Head over to Bab Doukkala, for example - totally different world.
sashac 09-Aug-2008 07:11	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Yeah, I think it's funny that if a woman sticks her tongue out in the US she would get hassled more, or worse but in Morocco they will steer well clear of you. I always tell women who are concerned about their safety travelling along in Morocco that even if you get groped a little it's harmless and easy to stop, since it's not tolerated by others there.
nusnus 09-Aug-2008 09:53	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? It's pretty easy to make Moroccans feel ashamed or offended. Sticking you tongue out would be one way, offering them money would be another.
Marocfan 10-Aug-2008 02:07	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Offering them money offends? NOT offering them money seems to offend them more.
nusnus 10-Aug-2008 03:12	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Travel more in southern Morocco to see the offence you can cause to people's dignity. Not everywhere is Essaouira.
alifbaa 11-Aug-2008 12:00	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Um, I do realize sticking one's tongue out offends. I therefore only do it when I am offended (e.g. hit on). I think that's pretty damn fair.
sashac 12-Aug-2008 02:36	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? I'm with you Alifbaa - if you're going to be rude, you should expect rudeness back (although I hate rudeness).
sashac 12-Aug-2008 02:42	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? That's for sure!! Although people in Tafraoute are surprisingly tolerant of short sleeves and have no problem with non-mulims wearing scarves on their heads (it was really sunny that day and my head was getting sunburned). For the most part, one has to be careful.
sashac 12-Aug-2008 02:49	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? From what I've seen - if they're just trying to help you they definitely don't want your money. However, if you're going to try to offer a tout or shopkeeper money, you might as well use their services, pay a little more a get something out of it cause they'll probably bug you more. Besides, there are ways to get rid of people.
ohiodaddy59 26-Aug-2008 02:18	RE: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Where did you stay? I'm sorry you had a bad experience but wife would have a ball with this. I've been working on a trip to egypt for about the last week and have read that this is fairly widespread but any information on particular hotspots would be appreciated. I know many will find it odd but please understand it's all in fun and I really would appreciate some advice. Thanks,
Fran_Bervard 29-Aug-2008 04:52	Re: If only I knew then what I know now. Or, is Marrakech over-commercialised? Why would you fly half way 'round the world just to get mugged in some delapidated old city anyway? You can get to Portsmouth and back for under a tenner.